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Fri, 16 Aug 2019 09:27:43 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-hamburg.de Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-hamburg.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mailhost.informatik.uni-hamburg.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 8GwKARWUo2zG for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2019 09:27:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from svs26.informatik.uni-hamburg.de (svs26.informatik.uni-hamburg.de [134.100.15.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Erik Sy", Issuer "DFN-Verein Global Issuing CA" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: sy) by mailhost.informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 021E1919 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2019 09:27:41 +0200 (CEST) To: resolverless-dns@ietf.org References: <20190815163938.CF9CB85D108@ary.local> From: Erik Sy Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=sy@informatik.uni-hamburg.de; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFzVyS4BEADnUWBPWNK8CNxDj8QarMioEQsyEiLkpsln4zxw1cxhTnK+ZHd4wTOh1BZf GVmGZ7wdb/NLiQbENv44okX4mYgJjt32gbVg8ssfScfTEO9PVBgLi5SDtLAxLk8TjF7ETIkG NUWgAQm6Pw6EowjLjMJ4y3fahPcypqtfuO1cxF86pPYAsSG+9iuInpBQoZwuvZu3SLUMXB9l +Xwiy77wEpvPg49pNQhbFqlIZXAHTLyEIlrxG41xXbTt7P5kH333c1cRD//EeC2oEjZhgCBh B4ObFpgL4JxSo71MZFdSDOWfiwMq3kXOwJnPNq9xzcWEItVyLK30fXWt5uZ3YfUcZGpGXv1Y Kl4monIru9NFVSW35FlhHtpgUKdQBKJMeuc1ckZr00zRtd1tf/69rdnjJngR+5RJZE3ykDx4 bJ4P75nqeDUe8adc4S0GeExEgsjVl8QZpCgIrjicA4MQERJKaA3bmCWy5YfCqsZYfbFXrcmq sZopkMTI2X5ZsA3y+jjWlmfDo3Tdu9ddfF8BSB0nTbaPLnJCs878T8HE+Lx9y6QyHlfZ0BJx IuepITZInhbH2c/X5Ipw37+YjNCwzlCOozJDZ/tTj8suMpAKdt4qq3OR1PKyhlilUBiQcYDu 4HfGffihD91Bwxz89YsAtej6EvWLjSfF4fUucFMh9N4GSVQK/QARAQABtCZFcmlrIFN5IDxz eUBpbmZvcm1hdGlrLnVpbi1oYW1idXJnLmRlPokCVgQTAQoAQQIbAwUJB4YfgAULCQgHAwUV CgkICwUWAgMBAAIeAQIXgBYhBADP3q0kgaL0XCmyn7pmQSEb9ifsBQJc1dhqAhkBAAoJELpm QSEb9ifs580P9AiLD49H+bZhNwXZYAXD236D6mKBimXo7EnM8D+v6TXiBKweH35XkKjkHtfU nosHYybfQoV8Rjcdg4lZ8+E/N/7Jk0dcQ6N6gUY1YvMw+t5AiEXMZdz6tQEjwrU+FVlBMN7j WKDpumE4PjkKlxh4IPc9HCgmI0G3uq859nIBvHEpPyCc6z1++9zq+oqP8vUtFLqmuAhQJoOc JSyKv7FYnGhGRnGJGPwkdqwGfS6fZaavhKDXgBcvULXKF7gThZp6kAHG7QhEeNmwL4l/UTOA oAu1pwTfelMwkRWwXyZjgnSqY59ejD6lcFdxZ51O4qIfPmxViaORhNcguD9SvdGw6kdEGNIA az+bd8UfVltz2EkWb+KPbDi6bpa12Zr2Sz+8AakDRhEQ6gSLHicK1cyimhsf66i4SjlUMefX Gq2ImH2xJTMSZi2GN/0JtK/KaBfwArvxoNlWfp3aP97fmXeqNWZVJo2T0+Vvr3hKs00XhU/S 82sbVeFmAJMho5SL4GO+CYEYBQUuIUj131JBfgw3o/YB/WuTD+ELuM+VKP0loXPcgfE4UlEM Ik8yJmzKbRRXfwhCpvoc5T0GFtmQ9szMO9cnll+BiDK3qHNtfMsY09PgjCHnOzwhvYMf7H+3 g0dH3HyIY5Id1YPS88GANpqiG+K1d3vwr2dTER5ZUBuu+pq5Ag0EXNXJLgEQAKRNM1sPfiLC nEVME84YDsek0M+5svW6T1ggJL4dAgUdwYyujSrDdEujBr1AJaVHuJzMKLvqAIQqSvid0qVM zH32rx70LIkaLJE6iGbf/ckHHA1bpgzDRY9dcLj/J/B0F94BFx1oSavnP6uD1qRODnc4c9rZ s/GfmdnTxaC84MG26SWua2ckk81+ZP2qenXnebz1Krv0oRvObGW3QzAAjyg7Fdlb9UqRApmI FbM8xtTtNyls+ISruC8KbYTxv5wPegm817iLox9WpXkkJNbM6I/Nn887yvxsZghbiuoJaqJl OQqkm1wlMroQEIVIfZbe9+iSB7wc9KisxAOxsoFTfOeIwNfgH6HMvzNo+yffLnvjNO3v/Yzx utfP4FL00lVl53aTWj+Hq6Bym1EX+ZSSb+LhDW5MzXig4PYJKgZf2L+fr2SfDoiZMY6Nbirt DMAS2TpKaV4Jgc8576qkhwhG7o9GKPmNWV55lo+sFsGIXCsVB5zWjCq/FUJLg+dE+FR6aIR7 q2npur4rz9os69POEbTcIKn3vfbQ8ytaTuRfFGeTq2VjHXzi/qH49+i5sWLgvZug31f0dDhs PKDFdSTKrv2DFaKW9OsAbPoqqT3krqE0ho8iMbOaPqpEUn8z+cR7Ozuz3BE/ZedetOh/W8Kx K04rYuWGo4bZmf42QoKfWM6vABEBAAGJAjwEGAEKACYWIQQAz96tJIGi9Fwpsp+6ZkEhG/Yn 7AUCXNXJLgIbDAUJB4YfgAAKCRC6ZkEhG/Yn7HwtD/98u7M3mR5ktzk2aCkS7grO7PMbEFqS 0ycCOV+3P3u6gMy0conDgywA+niXVmzO4UsD2u7ncE8Y27Gc+nx0Q0MgmZ7Nju/rlLc/xisU Q++0MLhvwWQU6NRIO9hhaPK8gQzkvTtxRWxKljh7fDqlb9L02rCJ5jZ7zpRxGrRanQxkB7Z6 StY2AAaI6SMH6RDV45J2uVT+Fg5qenA3wqgxeY/V2avEFNHMwbs1v3pUmnPo5KTLvaMbMDaf PKu8akQezpO4CK3ugxV3tMQ43RFT4kdl1XQyaKEffLQUyoUyFHGJfq66+01t4cMu4/CEC7D+ S7pkOn7ANuwgilfINHVZ95Z1HOdadMYvt1Q37qmOaK34K6kHLbTglBIb2eBEp/OcUlOcrFEu 7yq1TU6QSvGA9QZVeAfttyA9YqEawB3j11uJm3xMknqS3SzTE0JxZNyz1Qri6OLnP3uVaXJj BCiiGZf6sgnCa7/JlYrrEIF3ukWQutUfG+1XVq85/gPYnmTlenp4PCIuQVJT+ldG3hPNS1un qX0iEGiV8XdwXy9Gg49QAhNOFn6llW17VP279NvEVa6eRAm5w4mp4L3FgpbFlKkCHZXzMx/7 wuYPd9pj+olW2uDid279lKsUGt0I7MVyad311Fd1WnQQrAuEw6ZduDNZMxnhRV4x0PxwnGEY Ye+WbA== X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N11101 Reply-To: sy@informatik.uni-hamburg.de Message-ID: <470d23bf-92f2-6e92-60ed-3adea1a5efad@informatik.uni-hamburg.de> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 09:27:40 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms010003040006090309070904" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Resolverless-dns] Paper on Resolver-less DNS X-BeenThere: resolverless-dns@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Resolverless DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 07:27:55 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms010003040006090309070904 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-GB Hi Ted, On 8/15/19 23:03, Ted Hardie wrote: > > Agreed, but your proposal appears as written to allow any web server > to try the attack, where it was formerly limited to a configured > resolver.=C2=A0 Unless I misunderstand the proposal, that a significant= > change in attack surface. Ok, we can include this into the privacy discussion of resolver-less DNS. In detail, an adversary providing tampered DNS records for a specific hostname can possibly learn that the user agent had established a connection to this hostname in the past. A successful attack requires the user agent to posses valid state of that prior connection allowing an abbreviated connection establishment such as QUIC source address tokens or TLS session resumption tickets. > =C2=A0 > =C2=A0It also raises the risk that a client will receive a server > authentication from a CA not intended by the domain owner (our friend > the enterprise, an attacker, a government, etc.).=C2=A0 We have some > mitigations for that, but they are not complete. The problem you are describing is not introduced by resolver-less DNS. The fact that the client may receive a server authentication from a CA not intended by the domain owner applies also to the traditional DNS. As mentioned earlier, I think attacks assuming a broken PKI cannot be effectively mitigated by DNS. Erik > > Unless you somehow limit the number of domains a web server can > provide DNS records for in some way that approximately matches their > own URL authority, this seems fairly risky to me.=C2=A0=C2=A0 You can e= liminate > the risk for a DNSSEC validating application if the DNS records allow > the validation to occur.=C2=A0=C2=A0 But that is not, at least yet, com= mon. > > regards, > > Ted > > > Thus, I do not understand why an > interdependence with the ticket lifetime is created. > > > > =C2=A0 > > > Erik=C2=A0 > > > =C2=A0 RFC 5077 says this: > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A client SHOULD delete the ticket and associated sta= te when > the time expires. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 It MAY delete the ticket earlier based on local poli= cy.=C2=A0 A > server MAY > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 treat a ticket as valid for a shorter or longer peri= od of > time than > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 what is stated in the ticket_lifetime_hint. > > If you know a server sets 0 or a long lifetime, in other words, y= ou > > may be able to guess that a session ticket is available, but > otherwise > > it is a crapshoot either for the benign DNS-record supplying host= or > > an attacker.=C2=A0 > > > > Given the large number of cases that will have to follow > fallback DNS > > lookup for the authentication, I think this a useful building blo= ck > > only for very popular services (since they are likely to be in th= e > > cache).=C2=A0 Given the other resources they have and the > reputational risk > > of allowing random sites to provide DNS records related to them, = I'm > > not yet sure that this is worth it. > > > > Ted > > > > *Imagine you are a government which wishes to detect when > citizens use > > GRINDR, as you disapprove of same sex encounters.=C2=A0 You can h= ave > > government=C2=A0 and affiliated sites push GRINDR DNS records usi= ng this > > method; when someone with a fresh TLS ticket for GRINDR tries to > > connect, you get their IP address and whatever other data leaked = in > > the exchange.=C2=A0 You can limit this risk in various ways (e.g.= by > > requiring the presented TLS certificate of the DNS-record supplyi= ng > > host have the domain in its list of alternative names), but this > > limits the effectiveness of this method and also runs the risk th= at > > governments may have root certificates that can generate those. > > > > > > > > --=20 > Resolverless-dns mailing list > Resolverless-dns@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/resolverless-dns > > --------------ms010003040006090309070904 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC ERMwggUSMIID+qADAgECAgkA4wvV+K8l2YEwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQELBQAwgYIxCzAJBgNVBAYT AkRFMSswKQYDVQQKDCJULVN5c3RlbXMgRW50ZXJwcmlzZSBTZXJ2aWNlcyBHbWJIMR8wHQYD 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