Re: [rfc-i] Citing drafts

tom petch <daedulus@btconnect.com> Tue, 02 March 2021 10:13 UTC

Return-Path: <rfc-interest-bounces@rfc-editor.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-rfc-interest-archive@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-rfc-interest-archive@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33C3B3A14F8; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 02:13:37 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -7.47
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.47 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, MAILING_LIST_MULTI=-1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ct1NnVU1u_UM; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 02:13:35 -0800 (PST)
Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F09563A14F6; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 02:13:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from rfcpa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by rfc-editor.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EB79F40754; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 02:13:31 -0800 (PST)
X-Original-To: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org
Delivered-To: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rfc-editor.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2EBBF40754 for <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 02:13:29 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at rfc-editor.org
Authentication-Results: rfcpa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com
Received: from rfc-editor.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (rfcpa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Iy4TdeE3Hedy for <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 02:13:25 -0800 (PST)
Received: from EUR01-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr140127.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.14.127]) by rfc-editor.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 433F2F40751 for <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 02:13:24 -0800 (PST)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=NLN75K+jqJqnD1g+7/TVfrYeHOA4oKsLX4AAmF0/fFy93qa/BRgvz+6yIeQ2vNOfEtLYYNMdJOxuj91205/GQuy1olR0VTtWQcl05PNjcnxhJvKbBw1oPxU9g5nrEDQn4SucEJz3zGhST5mATojl493OI0KNOi/IF2ge7eo2k8aKT+DGlJtl0+1sVTYti/4SLBQRIknHsD8KyBgf6g7TCk68sa+xhi2GEz92rYQmdii+R7sKrD5X+GhlZBvGTeD2IFoLAiY5mStKNlAvPSM/K2FHijtFxS/ICqW+hSLuw1NayAt2ft1iQGI0cd98FmssWUHt7+pgoOfdZHaR3RjIoA==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=I3isveUikaz7gu/IVjE3wUM3vXvlB8V1KAztci/a+WY=; b=WmxDTeOQWnl5g2FTB07fco4r9yHmvNSb2vXOaSLanBQWpA7s03agPmI7Cj/4qP3iC9EPuQs9/VARVTaIhahbX0oV44V48HOnjhxCmu0cxOClgZ/Pv9HCrTba4ouMFuuOuxK3A/+d6mRtuEzc43NotZABQdFtoEG4sP0mS+j8VL5J67ZK5rc7y0eIbw/6X0j/bONx2gGg/vyYQ1ShpU1i2yUOAPExGolWvQiU4NpxtRVI9SlW5RR08ptXtNDBSk0f9012FrbRCsUJSp36uchJz4qctQAW8I18LMy4UNsOgoxYSYomppCje7pZoGi4s7ZFvaQRSGwAZgssgMK+HtsR4g==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=btconnect.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=btconnect.com; dkim=pass header.d=btconnect.com; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-btconnect-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=I3isveUikaz7gu/IVjE3wUM3vXvlB8V1KAztci/a+WY=; b=I8DbcuaXHCw1/MKqEDyWvfmCX78iZ0P7it4PetKTOFfvvt5bqO67l6aY3h+ScGY/P+boF9HOUu61fhc/h5SINj87ZebxqOcKYL+/H4R3qAr7qqId42hZd6wN80S3vfVf1zfWYQZSoihSIZ3ht+oRSgapnpfucHAdTg6yUciDSQw=
Authentication-Results: rfc-editor.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;rfc-editor.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=btconnect.com;
Received: from VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:800:18b::8) by VI1PR0701MB6800.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:800:191::20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3912.10; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 10:13:24 +0000
Received: from VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::58e4:6cf1:a739:545d]) by VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::58e4:6cf1:a739:545d%5]) with mapi id 15.20.3912.016; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 10:13:24 +0000
To: Bron Gondwana <brong@fastmailteam.com>, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org
References: <ca04c9b0-a466-2bdb-7a4b-192ec12fc3fd@gmx.de> <780EF9C1-11FA-4ED2-B206-1FD82A1204CE@tzi.org> <3fee246b-7a01-7a4f-cb7a-a548f4040bd1@nostrum.com> <60392FB9.9060801@btconnect.com> <CD75A86D-FE9E-4F63-BAF9-7EEE0C2D6F84@akamai.com> <590c68bc-56cc-4ee1-b89a-be3458c71188@beta.fastmail.com>
From: tom petch <daedulus@btconnect.com>
Message-ID: <603E0FBE.5020809@btconnect.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2021 10:13:18 +0000
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0
In-Reply-To: <590c68bc-56cc-4ee1-b89a-be3458c71188@beta.fastmail.com>
X-Originating-IP: [86.146.121.140]
X-ClientProxiedBy: LO4P123CA0504.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:1ab::23) To VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:800:18b::8)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
Received: from [192.168.1.65] (86.146.121.140) by LO4P123CA0504.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:1ab::23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.20.3890.23 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 10:13:23 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 81394aa1-f712-4587-65d8-08d8dd63d053
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: VI1PR0701MB6800:
X-MS-Exchange-MinimumUrlDomainAge: rfc-editor.org#8327
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: <VI1PR0701MB6800259B0E4DE6D9E666EF30C6999@VI1PR0701MB6800.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:9508;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(376002)(396003)(366004)(136003)(39860400002)(346002)(16526019)(26005)(186003)(66946007)(66556008)(66476007)(478600001)(6486002)(6666004)(966005)(8936002)(8676002)(2906002)(956004)(16576012)(87266011)(86362001)(36756003)(33656002)(316002)(83380400001)(53546011)(5660300002)(2616005)(52116002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102;
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: 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
X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 81394aa1-f712-4587-65d8-08d8dd63d053
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: VI1PR07MB6704.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Mar 2021 10:13:24.1523 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: ApQSfaJ0vwrat70I6pynIqhgmqhpLGnRBs+1+pmS8Q3wZOOidnOV4VrHM8Ea2cQSjFDZOsB94Tmh2xSdVLE6WA==
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR0701MB6800
Subject: Re: [rfc-i] Citing drafts
X-BeenThere: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "A list for discussion of the RFC series and RFC Editor functions." <rfc-interest.rfc-editor.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/options/rfc-interest>, <mailto:rfc-interest-request@rfc-editor.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.rfc-editor.org/pipermail/rfc-interest/>
List-Post: <mailto:rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>
List-Help: <mailto:rfc-interest-request@rfc-editor.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest>, <mailto:rfc-interest-request@rfc-editor.org?subject=subscribe>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed"
Errors-To: rfc-interest-bounces@rfc-editor.org
Sender: rfc-interest <rfc-interest-bounces@rfc-editor.org>

On 02/03/2021 04:44, Bron Gondwana wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 27, 2021, at 04:46, Salz, Rich wrote:
>> Moved from rfc-interest (BCC) to tools-discuss.
>>
>>>     My pet hate is that I have to scroll to the bottom before I can tell the
>>      system that I want the lot.
>>
>> (Are hates what peeves become when fully grown? :)
>>
>> One the one hand, I get it.  I find it annoying too.  On the other hand, you're presumably already down at the bottom of the page at the time you see it. On the third hand, it's annoying to have to tweak the link if you already started sharing it. On the fourth hand, it could be an easy change.
>>
>> When would you want to get the full document?  When you click on a document from the WG page?  (e.g., https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/acme/documents/ )
>
> Plus one zillion to this.  I NEVER want just the top of the document, unsearchable, unscrollable.  If I open a document, I want to see the whole document.  Even the biggest RFC is really not that much data top ship across the network or render.

When all I want is the document, then I want the full document and the 
simplest, cleanest, fastest etc way to get it is from the ftp: server, 
which presents me with one line per every current I-D, title, date, 
size, all I need to know before I download it.

But often, when following a reference to a document, then context 
matters.  I want that meta-data before I go further.  If the I-D is in 
the RFC Editor queue, then there is no point in noting the spelling 
mistakes.  Almost all of the meta-data is relevant at some point; AD 
watching, Last Call, early YANG Doctor review requested, IESG Ballot, 
Shepherd write-up available, history of versions pre- and post- WG 
adoption and so on, all may colour what I am going to do and I need that 
data before I start on an I-D.

This is of course in the course of reviewing the work of other authors, 
peer review, but that is of course what makes the IETF different, that 
all are invited to review, to improve the quality of the IETF's output 
and having that meta-data is a  key part of that.

Tom Petch

> Bron.
>
> --
>    Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
>    brong@fastmailteam.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rfc-interest mailing list
> rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org
> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest
>
_______________________________________________
rfc-interest mailing list
rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org
https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest