Re: [Rfced-future] Model proposal

[Eliot Lear <[e-mail]>]

When discussing appeals chains, it is probably worth asking a few questions to be sure we have this right:

What can be appealed?
What remedies are permitted in the appeal at what level?
What are the interests in potential appellate bodies that might conflict?
Would a potential appellate body agree to extend its remit to cover such service?
Does the potential appellate body have the necessary authority to institute a remedy?

In particular, I would suggest that all of this be considered in light of the existence of the LLC and its board and their fiduciary responsibilities.  I’m not suggesting a particular answer here, but merely a line of questions that we should be comfortable answering.

Eliot

> On 10 Jul 2020, at 22:57, Brian E Carpenter <[e-mail]> wrote:
> 
> 
> Russ,
> 
> On 11-Jul-20 04:09, Russ Housley wrote:
>> Scott:
>> 
>> I stand corrected.  I mis-read the last sentence of Section 6.5.2.
>> 
>> All:
>> 
>> The overall point remains, does RFC 2026 apply here? If not, the the only appeal body would seem to be the IAB.
> 
> It will be what we define it to be at the end of this discussion. Please remember that I for one believe that we should probably take this responsibility away from the IAB completely. I can't see any reason except history for an "Architecture" committee to be in charge of a publishing service.
> 
> I'd certainly be inclined to put the ISOC Board at the end of any appeal chain, but it's a new thing, not part of the IETF standards process.
> 
> Regards
>    Brian
> 
>> 
>> Russ
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jul 10, 2020, at 11:32 AM, Scott O. Bradner <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>> 
>>> from 2026
>>> 
>>> 6.5.3 Questions of Applicable Procedure
>>> 
>>>  Further recourse is available only in cases in which the procedures
>>>  themselves (i.e., the procedures described in this document) are
>>>  claimed to be inadequate or insufficient to the protection of the
>>>  rights of all parties in a fair and open Internet Standards Process.
>>>  Claims on this basis may be made to the Internet Society Board of
>>>  Trustees.  The President of the Internet Society shall acknowledge
>>>  such an appeal within two weeks, and shall at the time of
>>>  acknowledgment advise the petitioner of the expected duration of the
>>>  Trustees' review of the appeal.  The Trustees shall review the
>>>  situation in a manner of its own choosing and report to the IETF on
>>>  the outcome of its review.
>>> 
>>>  The Trustees' decision upon completion of their review shall be final
>>>  with respect to all aspects of the dispute.
>>> 
>>>> On Jul 10, 2020, at 11:29 AM, Scott O. Bradner <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> this is not correct
>>>> 
>>>> under 2026 the only thing that can be appealed to the ISOC Board is a claim that the procedures as written are incorrect (e.g. unfair)
>>>> 
>>>> Scott
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jul 10, 2020, at 10:14 AM, Russ Housley <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Martin proposed:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Concretely, this proposes forming a RFC Series Evolution program of the IAB that uses the auspices of an IAB program, one that closely follows the model proposed in [RSEME]. This results in a group that follows [WG] procedures, with the exception that the functions performed by the IESG are instead performed by the IAB. In particular, selection of chairs and appeals regarding the execution of the process are directed to the IAB to resolve.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In an IETF WG, the appeals chain is:
>>>>> 
>>>>> WG Chair --> Area Director --> IESG --> IAB --> ISOC Board
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think this proposal is saying that for this activity, it is:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Program Chair --> IAB --> ISOC Board
>>>>> 
>>>>> Is every decision appealed to the IAB possible to escalate to the  ISOC Board?  Usually, disputes can only be escelated to the ISOC Board that claim that Internet standards procedures were not followed.  However, the appeals chain is quite short here, and ir is unclear to me that the Internet standards procedures applies to IAB programs.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Russ
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
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>>>> 
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>>> 
>> 
> 
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