Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 and editing before approval (was: Re: Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program)
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Thu, 02 April 2020 19:32 UTC
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Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2020 15:31:50 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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Subject: Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 and editing before approval (was: Re: Welcome to the RFC Editor Future Development Program)
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--On Thursday, April 2, 2020 11:52 -0400 Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> wrote: >> On Apr 1, 2020, at 11:51 PM, John C Klensin >> <john-ietf@jck.com> wrote: >> >> (I've changed the subject line because I really hope we can >> split this off and either set it aside until other work is >> finished or find another way to handle it as an issue.) >> >> --On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 19:30 -0700 Christian Huitema >> <huitema@huitema.net> wrote: >> >>> I did not write that we should remove copy editing. But we >>> could certainly find models in which it happens before >>> approval, not after it. > > The IESG approval process almost always leads to changes based > in DISCUSS or COMMENT. Sometimes these are technical changes. > We should not do copy edits until the technical document is > stable. That is exactly where the copy editing is in the > current process. > > We did a few process experiments where the RFC Editor was > invited to do copy edits earlier in the process. Theses > experiments did not reduce the review, approval, or final copy > editing times significantly. My conclusion is that the copy > editing is in the right place in the process. > > The use of the diff files has made the copy edit review MUCH > easier that it used to be. I'd be very happy to explore what > other tools could make it even easier. Russ, I was just trying to explain that the alternative Christian seemed to have been suggesting had been used (and was in use) in other places and how it worked. I was not, and would not, argue for it for the IETF because making it work here would, I believe, require major changes in procedures and maybe even in culture. An observation just in case it turns out to be useful in other contexts. What the Production Center does often goes beyond what most of the publishing industry considers copy editing. It rarely gets far into the range of what is often described as technical editing (or, more accurately, technical rewriting), but it, especially when combined with changes made at the behest of the IESG after Last Call, goes into that territory. The boundary, more or less, is when subject matter expertise, even expertise on the vocabulary and basic concepts of the relevant field and/or fairly extensive familiarity with other works in the same area(s) is required to do the expected editing job. The distinction is important for two reasons. First, if all they did was simple copy editing, we either wouldn't need AUTH48 or AUTH48 would be confined to things like misspellings they had missed. They do much more, they have acquired a great deal of expertise in our documents along the line, their work is important to us, and describing what they do as copy-editing not only fails to recognize that but risks our slipping into the problem of treating the RPC and its staff as just another set of basically interchangeable contractors. Second, my concern (and, if I understood Christian's note, at least part of his) is that we have too many documents that get to the end of community review during Last Call and then change enough via IESG action or RPC efforts to be only barely recognizable as the same document. The changes may be substantive ones that the IESG considers minor or the writing styles or skills in writing technical English of some authors may have required major rewrites of paragraphs or sections by the RPC. I've rarely seen either cause harm, but the fact remains that the community is signing off on one document and then a different document is being published. At least in principle, that is a risk and maybe se should be thinking about it and whether adjustments are in order (with the understanding that reordering the editing and approval processes is not the only option). best, john
- [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Future D… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Andrew G. Malis
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… John C Klensin
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Michael StJohns
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Lucy Lynch
- Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Edito… Wes Hardaker
- Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Edito… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Edito… Wes Hardaker
- Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Edito… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Edito… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Edito… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Edito… John C Klensin
- Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Edito… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Edito… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Edito… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Edito… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Edito… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Edito… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Edito… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Edito… John C Klensin
- Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Edito… John Levine
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… John C Klensin
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Larry Masinter
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Michael StJohns
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Michael StJohns
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Larry Masinter
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… John C Klensin
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com
- [Rfced-future] AUTH48 and editing before approval… John C Klensin
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Larry Masinter
- Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 and editing before appr… Russ Housley
- Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 and editing before appr… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 and editing before appr… Russ Housley
- Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 and editing before appr… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 and editing before appr… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 and editing before appr… Michael StJohns
- Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 and editing before appr… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 and editing before appr… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 and editing before appr… John C Klensin
- Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 and editing before appr… John Levine
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… John Levine
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Andrew G. Malis
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… John R. Levine
- [Rfced-future] Up level [Re: AUTH48 and editing b… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 and editing before appr… Russ Housley
- Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 and editing before appr… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Larry Masinter
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… John R. Levine
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… John R. Levine
- Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 and editing before appr… John C Klensin
- Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 and editing before appr… Russ Housley
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… John R. Levine
- Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 and editing before appr… John C Klensin
- Re: [Rfced-future] AUTH48 and editing before appr… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… John C Klensin
- Re: [Rfced-future] Welcome to the RFC Editor Futu… John Levine
- Re: [Rfced-future] [IAB] Welcome to the RFC Edito… Mark Nottingham