Re: [Rfcplusplus] Conversation as metaphor

Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com> Wed, 11 July 2018 16:03 UTC

Return-Path: <stpeter@mozilla.com>
X-Original-To: rfcplusplus@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfcplusplus@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD4BE130F30 for <rfcplusplus@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 09:03:04 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.001
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ks7lnjNL1Acw for <rfcplusplus@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 09:03:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io0-x22a.google.com (mail-io0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1E34130E2F for <rfcplusplus@ietf.org>; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 09:03:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id z19-v6so24158890ioh.4 for <rfcplusplus@ietf.org>; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 09:03:02 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=s9hN2TxfQed/ys5U5guPC6XOGRzxlS39VFKG6j6ZMbU=; b=D97oToO8Insnb7or5BMXAm7BMFqIkjpDGpXAA2PQGLoTCwbfjFamvq2kwyIkeicehg zUvVIF27sXMeHBe7468cN/HkY4zYYvBKY4K6dBYWummZmBZsFH7+YHrDHY/5aF0szAvz ReCvElQ1XIrl6eHYBo93RQ02Tjj7n+Qq4f0G4=
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=s9hN2TxfQed/ys5U5guPC6XOGRzxlS39VFKG6j6ZMbU=; b=G3Bcdi9oENFn2/7nxuJNGMfCtWen2McV4B9p39dORMA3sA7Rib2gFhKL3nVb61LFsN PcyRim1eCcufTfpHKYTrDvPlhH5Ug1OmPXfBNOM0r7ldjGOjj+nYzjWlSDNVcRvi3FwQ S2Wyys5L1KN4BtCeSIODEEcy6hEciaNinqzLkgdO66+DDyG3qDj2tfsl/Og2XFAEuMSi aHCmRNpxw1DotIrj+nMJ23BMJ+NKXDhf6dElmdFXlZY6LMRkNUO5TFdYM08+fhYFQFGF MHAlEoLuBaz5nmeSehrjoobBgWlwarbvIFmvEvfM9q2q2nc9NBuMTPMg6g635JcOwx4z M5Mg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlHkD0CTfsFdOp2avXBgJ33XaGeYhAB/mYV8PNgRJanHOWgAYJ8M HaOSx7Eok/WULwCWFuv+cLeycQ==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpe97kN95069qembkJJRAU60lYvZTFM9k8tW6FVN0ixAGeAbrejthjVaOYvcBBccAYbphTbhcA==
X-Received: by 2002:a6b:b685:: with SMTP id g127-v6mr24485686iof.209.1531324982126; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 09:03:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from dragon.local ([76.25.3.152]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t66-v6sm1374712ita.24.2018.07.11.09.03.01 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 11 Jul 2018 09:03:01 -0700 (PDT)
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com>, rfcplusplus@ietf.org
References: <CA+9kkMBVC82qy0hbUbQKm=OsFPsaJUPndtVaxd782au6Qy0w6Q@mail.gmail.com> <a4b50286-5c54-e6cf-9087-7171030b7fca@juniper.net> <C9EBFF44-DB93-45E4-954D-2AC5E2F47D03@gmail.com> <20180710192810.GQ20282@mx4.yitter.info> <0e127473-902a-2421-6b5d-73f9e7f83286@juniper.net> <20180710204512.GT20282@mx4.yitter.info> <af1d2bc2-2027-0a4b-856a-35b35c386624@gmail.com>
From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com>
Openpgp: preference=signencrypt
Autocrypt: addr=stpeter@mozilla.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFonEf4BEADvZ+RGsJoOyZaw2rKedB9pBb2nNXVGgymNS9+FAL/9SsfcrKaGYSiWEz7P Lvc97hWH3LACFAHvnzoktv+4IWHjItvhdi9kUQ3Gcbahe55OcdZuSXXH3w5cHF0rKz9aYRpN jENqXM5dA8x4zIymJraqYvHlFsuuPB8rcRIV9SKsvcy14w9iRqu770NjXfE/aIsyRwwmTPiU FQ0fOSDPA/x2DLjed/GYHem90C5vF4Er9InMqH5KAMLnjIYZ9DbPx5c5EME4zW/d648HOvPB bm+roZs4JTHBhjlrTtzDDpMcxHq1e8YPvSdDLPvgFXDcTD4+ztkdO5rvDkbc61QFcLlidU8H 3KBiOVMA/5Rgl4lcWZzGfJBnwvSrKVPsxzpuCYDg01Y/7TH4AuVkv5Na6jKymJegjxEuJUNw CBzAhxOb0H9dXROkvxnRdYS9f0slcNDBrq/9h9dIBOqLhoIvhu+Bhz6L/NP5VunQWsEleGaO 3gxGh9PP/LMyjweDjPz74+7pbyOW0b5VnIDFcvCTJKP0sBJjRU/uqmQ25ckozuYrml0kqVGp EfxhSKVqCFoAS4Q7ux99yT4re2X1kmlHh3xntzmOaRpcZsS8mJEnVyhJZBMOhqE280m80ZbS CYghd2K0EIuRbexd+lfdjZ+t8ROMMdW5L51CJVigF0anyYTcAwARAQABzSdQZXRlciBTYWlu dC1BbmRyZSA8c3RwZXRlckBtb3ppbGxhLmNvbT7CwZQEEwEIAD4WIQQ1VSPTuPTvyWCdvvRl YYwYf2gUqQUCWicR/gIbIwUJCWYBgAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBlYYwY f2gUqdaREAChG8qU1853mP0sv2Mersns8TLG1ztgoKHvMXFlMUpNz6Oi6CjjaMNFhP7eUY4T D43+yQs7f4qCkOAPWuuqO8FbNWQ+yUoVkqF8NUrrVkZUlZ1VZBMQHNlaEwwu1CGoHsLoRohP SiZ0hpmGTWB3V6cDDK4KN6nl610WJbzE9LeKY1AxtePdJi2KM281U0Fz8ntij1jWu0gF2xU4 Sez46JDogHLWKgd0srauhcCVzZjAhiWrXp1+ryzSWYaZO8Kh8SnF1f4o6jtYikMqkxUaI5nX wvD3kNX4AMSkCAZfG7Jcfj/SLDojTcREgO87g7B9bcOOsHN4lj3lHoFV0aXpgPmjfIvAjJHu fHkXZAQAH8w0u9bgJqRn703+A4NPfLopnjegyhlNi7fQ3cMQV1H7Oj7WrB/pCcprx+1u/6Uq oTtDwWh1U5uVthVAI0QojpNWR08zABDX19TlGtVoeygaQV3CAEolxTiYQtCfVavUzUplCZ/t 3v4YiRov+NylflJd+1akyOs1IAgARf444BnoH1fotkpfXNOpp9wUXXwsQcFRdP7vpMkSCkc0 sxPNTVX3ei0QImp4NsrFdaep7LV3zEb3wkAp6KE5Qno4hVVEypULbvB0G6twNZbeRfcs2Rjp jnPb2fofvg2WhAKB20dnRfIfK8OKTD/P+JDcauJANjmekM7BTQRaJxH+ARAApPwkbOTChAQu jMvteb/xcwuL5JZElmLxIqvJhqybV7JknM+3ATyN0CTYQFvPTgIrhpk4zSn0A6pEePdK8mKK 5/aHyd7pr7rLEi1sI/X3UE8ld/E83MExksKrYbs0UX1wSQwYXU6g64KicnuP2Abqg+8wrQ18 1nPcZci9jJI75XVPnTdUpZD5aaQWGp7IJ06NTbiOk30I50ORfulgKoe4m3UfsMALFxIx3pJk oy76xC2tjxYGf+4Uq1M0iK3Wy655GrcwXq/5ieODNUcAZzvK5hsUVRodBq0Lq3g1ivQF4ba7 RQayDzlW6XgoeU49xnCr9XdZYnTnj4iaPmr2NtY6AacBwRz+bJsyugeSyGgHsnVGyUSMk8YN wZHvUykMjH21LLzIUX5NFlcumLUXDOECELCJwewui4W81sI5Sq/WDJet+iJwwylUX22TSulG VwDS+j66TLZpk1hEwPanGLwFBSosafqSNBMDVWegKWvZZVyoNHIaaQbrTIoAwuAGvdVncSQz ttC6KkaFlAtlZt3+eUFWlMUOQ9jxQKTWymyliWKrx+S6O1cr4hwVRbg7RQkpfA8E2Loa13oO vRSQy/M2YBRZzRecTKY6nslJo6FWTftpGO7cNcvbmQ6I++5cBG1B1eNy2RFGJUzGh1vlYo51 pdfSg0U1oPHBPCHNvPYCJ7UAEQEAAcLBfAQYAQgAJhYhBDVVI9O49O/JYJ2+9GVhjBh/aBSp BQJaJxH+AhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJEGVhjBh/aBSpAw0P/1tEcEaZUO1uLenNtqysi3mQ6qAHYALR Df3p2z/RBKRVx0DJlzDfDvJ2R/GRwoo+vyCviecuG2RNKmJbf1vSm/QTtbQMUjwut9mx6KCY CyKwniqdhaMBmjCfV2DB2MxxZLYMtDfx/2mY7vzAci7AkjC+RkSUByMEOkyscUydKC/ETdf9 tvI8GhTY/8Q7JSylS3lQA5pMUHiIf+KpSmqKZeBPkGc7nSKM1w1UKUvFAsyyVsiG6A/hWrTr 7tTQAl7YfjtOGE8n4IKGktvrT99bbh9wdWKZ5FdHUN9hx2Q8VP8+0lR1CH2laVFbEwCOv1vM W4cgQDLxwwpo1iOTdHBVtQDxlQ9hPMKVlB1KP9KjchxuiLc24wLmCjP3pDMml4LQxOYB34Eq cgPZ3uHvJZG309sb2wTMTWaXobWNI++ZrsRD5GTmuzF3kkx3krtrq6HI5NSaemxK6MTDTjDN Rj/OwTl0yU35eJXuuryB20GFOSUsxiw00I2hMGQ1Cy9L/+IW6Dvotd8O3LmKh2tFArzXaKLx /rZyGNurS/Go5YjHp8wdJOs7Ka2p1U31js24PMWO6hf6hIiY2WRUsnE6xZNhvBTgKOY6u0KT V6hTevFqEw7OAZDCWUoE2Ob2/oHGZCCMW5SLAMgp7eihF0kGf2S2CmpIFYXGb61hAD8SqSY7 Fn7V
Message-ID: <3e8272be-50fb-113b-fd6f-a5850d668472@mozilla.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 10:03:00 -0600
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <af1d2bc2-2027-0a4b-856a-35b35c386624@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha256"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tQRI2doNalx6QTUPSYj3ev4HIUE7uptIE"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfcplusplus/GdG9sv4LDYg6TjDaOL-u1p5f11c>
Subject: Re: [Rfcplusplus] Conversation as metaphor
X-BeenThere: rfcplusplus@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27
Precedence: list
List-Id: For discussion of the RFC++ BoF proposal and related ideas <rfcplusplus.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/rfcplusplus>, <mailto:rfcplusplus-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/rfcplusplus/>
List-Post: <mailto:rfcplusplus@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:rfcplusplus-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rfcplusplus>, <mailto:rfcplusplus-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 16:03:05 -0000

On 7/10/18 8:14 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 11/07/2018 08:45, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> ....
>> Others seem to be arguing that the RFC series should in fact welcome
>> anything on any topic,
> 
> Really? I haven't seen that and it seems like a strawman to me.
> 
> The Independent stream has criteria that have already been mentioned
> here; relevance to the Internet and surviving peer review are among them.
> 
>> and as long as they can find someone willing to
>> let them in, there's no reason they shouldn't be in the RFC series too
>> (i.e. we shouldn't prohibit people "from publishing RFCs when they
>> want to do so and find it valuable to do so").  It is an interesting
>> question whether, if I wanted to publish an RFC about Wittgenstein's
>> remarks on colour, whether the ISE would consider it.  We do have the
>> April 1st ones, after all.
> 
> But even they are tested for relevance to the Internet and are peer
> reviewed, just not in public for fairly obvious reasons.

In what sense are Independent Stream documents peer reviewed?

At a higher level, is there a good definition of "peer review" so that
we can understand how documents from the various streams map to that
definition?

Peter