Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt
"Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com> Fri, 19 October 2018 14:54 UTC
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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
CC: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, "roll-bier-dt@ietf.org" <roll-bier-dt@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt
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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 14:54:10 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt
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Please consider this then :) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-thubert-6lo-bier-dispatch/ take care, Pascal > -----Original Message----- > From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> > Sent: vendredi 19 octobre 2018 15:52 > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> > Cc: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; roll-bier-dt@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 01:20:11PM +0000, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > > Sure, but the mystery to me is what goes transported with BIER. > > As said, BIER proper can encapsulate anything deemed important enough to get > a code point in the BIER encap. I am saying "proper" because ROLL may not > want to take RFC8296 given the likely competition with 6LowPan. > > > Because that is the heart of the problem we are facing in this DT. > > If BIER transports a same IP packet to multiple destinations, then they must all > accept the same packet. > > More a property of the larger clas of multicasting overall assuming tojust copy > the payload - and not to modify it. > > I thought we had killed in last weeks meeting the idea of trying to come up with > a mechanism that manages to use packet replication (BIER) and then modding > received copies to fake different per-receiver IP unicast packets > - because of the problem of making this architecturally work well with higher > layers like UDP that also have a notion of an IP (pseudo) header. > Too much faking needed. At least thats what i tried to summarize in my slides. > > Aka: We use BIER-TE for unicast packets but then the expectation is that there is > just one destination, and the whole purpose of BIER-TE is not replication but > source routing. And we use BIER-TE(/BIER) for IP multicast packets where there > can be 1 or more destinations. > > [ Of course there are fun extensions later, e.g.: a unicast packet could still be > sent to redundant nodes sharing an IP adddress and therefore able to > receive/process the same packet, but i think thats less likely something one > would do in a ROLL domain. ] > > > Moreover, if the destination is not the router indicated by the bit > > but a neighbor or a set of neighbors to that router, then the inner > > packet must indicate that. > > All in all, that tells me that the transported packet is IP multicast. > > Yes, we have two layers. The BIER layer that only reaches nodes with an > assigned BIER bit, and they can communicate potentially any payload across > BIER, IP or other. And then on top of that there is IP multicast between the BIER > edge nodes and IP unicast/multicast only nodes. The pictures in the slide deck > posted intend to show that (that IP multicast building block picture still TBD). > > > What do I miss? > > I think primarily me wanting to figure out the encap we use within the BIER- > ROLL domain: RFC8296 vs. 6LowPan+extensions. > > Cheers > Toerless > > > Take care, > > > > Pascal > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> > > > Sent: vendredi 19 octobre 2018 15:14 > > > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> > > > Cc: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; roll-bier-dt@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 12:36:06PM +0000, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > wrote: > > > > Hello Toerless: > > > > > > > > Well, there is as Carsten says a multicast support for RPL storing > > > > mode, but not > > > for non-storing. This is where Carsten's draft comes in to play. > > > > > > Sure. As said, i may not have correctly captured what Mcr was > > > explaining, > > > > > > > In normal BIER, the bits indicate the routers, don't they? So > > > > there's an IP > > > packet inside, correct, like in my tunnel mode? But then I expect it > > > is the same packet for all destinations. So how does htat work, is > > > it a mcast packet or do all the destination have a same IP address? > > > > > > "Proper BIER" (TM) (the stuff done by BIER-WG) has defined its own > > > encapsulation header (RFC8296) that sits on top of MPLS or ethernet > > > and that has its own next-proto field/registry, so it can be > > > followed by IP or anything else that BIER-WG feels deserves a code point in > that registry. > > > > > > Cheers > > > Toerless > > > > > > > Pascal > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Roll-bier-dt <roll-bier-dt-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of > > > > > Toerless Eckert > > > > > Sent: vendredi 19 octobre 2018 14:21 > > > > > To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> > > > > > Cc: roll-bier-dt@ietf.org > > > > > Subject: Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt > > > > > > > > > > That was me taking notes what Michael said, and maybe i didn't > > > > > transcribe it correctly. Hope Michael is subscribed here to answer. > > > > > > > > > > I think i was more wondering about the suport of compressed IP > > > > > multicast headders in 6LowPan because that is unclear to me and > > > > > we probably need to take one of the DT meetings to detail more > > > > > what extensions we need to do for 6LowPan to support BIER. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 07:45:50AM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > > > > > On Oct 19, 2018, at 04:56, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://raw.githubusercontent.com/toerless/roll-bier/master/ > > > > > > > note > > > > > > > s/18 > > > > > > > 1017-roll-bier-notes.txt > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you mean with ???RPL does not support multicast.???? > MOP=3? > > > > > > (That is of course storing mode only, and storing mode > > > > > > doesn???t exist :-), so > > > > > you have a point. > > > > > > That???s why we did ccast, to fill in multicast for > > > > > > non-storing > > > > > > mode.) > > > > > > > > > > > > Grüße, Carsten > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > --- > > > > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Roll-bier-dt mailing list > > > > > Roll-bier-dt@ietf.org > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/roll-bier-dt > > > > > > -- > > > --- > > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Roll-bier-dt mailing list > > Roll-bier-dt@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/roll-bier-dt > > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de
- [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Greg Shepherd
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Tony Przygienda