Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt
Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> Wed, 24 October 2018 15:46 UTC
Return-Path: <gjshep@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: roll-bier-dt@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: roll-bier-dt@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0523A130E12 for <roll-bier-dt@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 08:46:38 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.999
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gHsw0hTjDAHX for <roll-bier-dt@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 08:46:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A3C9130F26 for <roll-bier-dt@ietf.org>; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 08:46:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id k17-v6so3444334ioc.4 for <roll-bier-dt@ietf.org>; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 08:46:34 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=4IuCj3qvuaJLlegcFm1QZ15tGylQrlio4shKb4nAH1Q=; b=dBYNIUfNi+VgHODud/Cj98ro5HlMMAH+ZztRjoQy0rCx9lY/sv9jiKTNsX7gNsh2IM 5W59CUEfIroEjrHn0A8D7fDX/grQPnAZTiOoIA3XgsWXR8lFX3EneECt4EglTz4laPhQ 7Pvb6zvw0RLC22oxXqftMo1dJzR9Yw9FC7v+QYoNfP4Avia/l2GVPW2Dv6oR7RYtg/4N 0cKrAlXBwPsSUvCMLQT9ahPZkkJoa77HDa0BQ3FuRbS/H1mSelZfndV8rYsBBeqmAKpu Ng7nk69c/4a3sBvTrQrJrT0iMkWeeVrt6dsjDOs5vscDf/Es2nZkQDKBfjbFV0n1kOWk hyqg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4IuCj3qvuaJLlegcFm1QZ15tGylQrlio4shKb4nAH1Q=; b=i/5kMlYfvL7LNpX3ZaoItND3CVkqPavZ7sK+GHJ3oMtSd/2/kP/HqPgSwl08o1QVLa kxPOWS9gciOuBF57vkXa3+bSWb7/xuh2x5ZjuRsuCLcPGq9ufKeYu/x+badQn3ORIscL mLoj+8ZjgzliwSM3VLiV0q9t8xhwI31KO7FME8yggBhBW9k2Z2SEe6Om+/MFTWNbWXAw ZYaY9+4Gwzq/anG2I5uQgQqaNCuv96dVqiiHx826loLA5vUhh3LU9OSIiKA7N/5VkaQn 4a27wJpGgmixr+DKtcqQFCkDPgl+MDRABsIv29oSoAe5jxWIIJQwhKmFrZFS7nVOyZmv kqPA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLY/hf35FI/tWwXNbvx6hU+lJiVh659wSGtSrboTl7kdqLEvDg5 upCK2ASyIezKN1CGnxDsqWL7WKNgHPfEsXRyH7I=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5dcF2PP6FfLc9cGBhm3/jeguCTpPhWzGuJtRPFc/ONQK+Rij/FiqTJ81SbV8+Ies1Uj/7Ff8STaF0jh7qobBso=
X-Received: by 2002:a6b:ca06:: with SMTP id a6-v6mr13922902iog.2.1540395993325; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 08:46:33 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <20181019025623.v5da76qrnakohlef@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <61CE8F7B-C12B-4B13-8B48-B199370AC4AB@tzi.org> <20181019122120.qviq46ec5akddel6@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <3d9ffd3c1e704f1db578222750ecf8b3@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <20181019131412.lmqn4xp2frdjddvh@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <2313ec2f4a204e338747119a6e963165@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <20181019135215.fxysqsnmyi4miakl@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <10af6194e1da417da0f3e682d361f9dd@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com>
In-Reply-To: <10af6194e1da417da0f3e682d361f9dd@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com>
Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com
From: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 08:46:24 -0700
Message-ID: <CABFReBog5CXObpZLUg1qh=CpsyEDb9sboFJMOK8XeYvvZ6F11A@mail.gmail.com>
To: pthubert@cisco.com
Cc: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, roll-bier-dt@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fef4c00578fb63de"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/roll-bier-dt/Lj4D7G5AGCKssfFGsWihwfQB1IU>
Subject: Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt
X-BeenThere: roll-bier-dt@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "ROLL WG Design Team for bitstring addressing. See https://trac.ietf.org/trac/roll/wiki/roll-bier-dt" <roll-bier-dt.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/roll-bier-dt>, <mailto:roll-bier-dt-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/roll-bier-dt/>
List-Post: <mailto:roll-bier-dt@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:roll-bier-dt-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/roll-bier-dt>, <mailto:roll-bier-dt-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 15:46:43 -0000
I won't be on the call today, sorry. Greg On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 7:54 AM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) < pthubert@cisco.com> wrote: > Please consider this then :) > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-thubert-6lo-bier-dispatch/ > > take care, > > Pascal > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> > > Sent: vendredi 19 octobre 2018 15:52 > > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> > > Cc: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; roll-bier-dt@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt > > > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 01:20:11PM +0000, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > wrote: > > > Sure, but the mystery to me is what goes transported with BIER. > > > > As said, BIER proper can encapsulate anything deemed important enough to > get > > a code point in the BIER encap. I am saying "proper" because ROLL may not > > want to take RFC8296 given the likely competition with 6LowPan. > > > > > Because that is the heart of the problem we are facing in this DT. > > > If BIER transports a same IP packet to multiple destinations, then > they must all > > accept the same packet. > > > > More a property of the larger clas of multicasting overall assuming > tojust copy > > the payload - and not to modify it. > > > > I thought we had killed in last weeks meeting the idea of trying to come > up with > > a mechanism that manages to use packet replication (BIER) and then > modding > > received copies to fake different per-receiver IP unicast packets > > - because of the problem of making this architecturally work well with > higher > > layers like UDP that also have a notion of an IP (pseudo) header. > > Too much faking needed. At least thats what i tried to summarize in my > slides. > > > > Aka: We use BIER-TE for unicast packets but then the expectation is that > there is > > just one destination, and the whole purpose of BIER-TE is not > replication but > > source routing. And we use BIER-TE(/BIER) for IP multicast packets where > there > > can be 1 or more destinations. > > > > [ Of course there are fun extensions later, e.g.: a unicast packet > could still be > > sent to redundant nodes sharing an IP adddress and therefore able to > > receive/process the same packet, but i think thats less likely > something one > > would do in a ROLL domain. ] > > > > > Moreover, if the destination is not the router indicated by the bit > > > but a neighbor or a set of neighbors to that router, then the inner > > > packet must indicate that. > > > All in all, that tells me that the transported packet is IP multicast. > > > > Yes, we have two layers. The BIER layer that only reaches nodes with an > > assigned BIER bit, and they can communicate potentially any payload > across > > BIER, IP or other. And then on top of that there is IP multicast between > the BIER > > edge nodes and IP unicast/multicast only nodes. The pictures in the > slide deck > > posted intend to show that (that IP multicast building block picture > still TBD). > > > > > What do I miss? > > > > I think primarily me wanting to figure out the encap we use within the > BIER- > > ROLL domain: RFC8296 vs. 6LowPan+extensions. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > Pascal > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> > > > > Sent: vendredi 19 octobre 2018 15:14 > > > > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> > > > > Cc: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; roll-bier-dt@ietf.org > > > > Subject: Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 12:36:06PM +0000, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > > wrote: > > > > > Hello Toerless: > > > > > > > > > > Well, there is as Carsten says a multicast support for RPL storing > > > > > mode, but not > > > > for non-storing. This is where Carsten's draft comes in to play. > > > > > > > > Sure. As said, i may not have correctly captured what Mcr was > > > > explaining, > > > > > > > > > In normal BIER, the bits indicate the routers, don't they? So > > > > > there's an IP > > > > packet inside, correct, like in my tunnel mode? But then I expect it > > > > is the same packet for all destinations. So how does htat work, is > > > > it a mcast packet or do all the destination have a same IP address? > > > > > > > > "Proper BIER" (TM) (the stuff done by BIER-WG) has defined its own > > > > encapsulation header (RFC8296) that sits on top of MPLS or ethernet > > > > and that has its own next-proto field/registry, so it can be > > > > followed by IP or anything else that BIER-WG feels deserves a code > point in > > that registry. > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > Pascal > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Roll-bier-dt <roll-bier-dt-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of > > > > > > Toerless Eckert > > > > > > Sent: vendredi 19 octobre 2018 14:21 > > > > > > To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> > > > > > > Cc: roll-bier-dt@ietf.org > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt > > > > > > > > > > > > That was me taking notes what Michael said, and maybe i didn't > > > > > > transcribe it correctly. Hope Michael is subscribed here to > answer. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think i was more wondering about the suport of compressed IP > > > > > > multicast headders in 6LowPan because that is unclear to me and > > > > > > we probably need to take one of the DT meetings to detail more > > > > > > what extensions we need to do for 6LowPan to support BIER. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 07:45:50AM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > > > > > > On Oct 19, 2018, at 04:56, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://raw.githubusercontent.com/toerless/roll-bier/master/ > > > > > > > > note > > > > > > > > s/18 > > > > > > > > 1017-roll-bier-notes.txt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you mean with ???RPL does not support multicast.???? > > MOP=3? > > > > > > > (That is of course storing mode only, and storing mode > > > > > > > doesn???t exist :-), so > > > > > > you have a point. > > > > > > > That???s why we did ccast, to fill in multicast for > > > > > > > non-storing > > > > > > > mode.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Grüße, Carsten > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > --- > > > > > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Roll-bier-dt mailing list > > > > > > Roll-bier-dt@ietf.org > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/roll-bier-dt > > > > > > > > -- > > > > --- > > > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Roll-bier-dt mailing list > > > Roll-bier-dt@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/roll-bier-dt > > > > -- > > --- > > tte@cs.fau.de > > _______________________________________________ > Roll-bier-dt mailing list > Roll-bier-dt@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/roll-bier-dt >
- [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Greg Shepherd
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Tony Przygienda