Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt
Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com> Wed, 24 October 2018 16:06 UTC
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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 09:06:42 -0700
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To: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>, roll-bier-dt@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt
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I thought it was all delayed until f2f in thailand ? On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 8:46 AM Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote: > I won't be on the call today, sorry. > > Greg > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 7:54 AM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) < > pthubert@cisco.com> wrote: > >> Please consider this then :) >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-thubert-6lo-bier-dispatch/ >> >> take care, >> >> Pascal >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> >> > Sent: vendredi 19 octobre 2018 15:52 >> > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> >> > Cc: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; roll-bier-dt@ietf.org >> > Subject: Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt >> > >> > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 01:20:11PM +0000, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >> wrote: >> > > Sure, but the mystery to me is what goes transported with BIER. >> > >> > As said, BIER proper can encapsulate anything deemed important enough >> to get >> > a code point in the BIER encap. I am saying "proper" because ROLL may >> not >> > want to take RFC8296 given the likely competition with 6LowPan. >> > >> > > Because that is the heart of the problem we are facing in this DT.. >> > > If BIER transports a same IP packet to multiple destinations, then >> they must all >> > accept the same packet. >> > >> > More a property of the larger clas of multicasting overall assuming >> tojust copy >> > the payload - and not to modify it. >> > >> > I thought we had killed in last weeks meeting the idea of trying to >> come up with >> > a mechanism that manages to use packet replication (BIER) and then >> modding >> > received copies to fake different per-receiver IP unicast packets >> > - because of the problem of making this architecturally work well with >> higher >> > layers like UDP that also have a notion of an IP (pseudo) header. >> > Too much faking needed. At least thats what i tried to summarize in my >> slides. >> > >> > Aka: We use BIER-TE for unicast packets but then the expectation is >> that there is >> > just one destination, and the whole purpose of BIER-TE is not >> replication but >> > source routing. And we use BIER-TE(/BIER) for IP multicast packets >> where there >> > can be 1 or more destinations. >> > >> > [ Of course there are fun extensions later, e.g.: a unicast packet >> could still be >> > sent to redundant nodes sharing an IP adddress and therefore able to >> > receive/process the same packet, but i think thats less likely >> something one >> > would do in a ROLL domain. ] >> > >> > > Moreover, if the destination is not the router indicated by the bit >> > > but a neighbor or a set of neighbors to that router, then the inner >> > > packet must indicate that. >> > > All in all, that tells me that the transported packet is IP multicast. >> > >> > Yes, we have two layers. The BIER layer that only reaches nodes with an >> > assigned BIER bit, and they can communicate potentially any payload >> across >> > BIER, IP or other. And then on top of that there is IP multicast >> between the BIER >> > edge nodes and IP unicast/multicast only nodes. The pictures in the >> slide deck >> > posted intend to show that (that IP multicast building block picture >> still TBD). >> > >> > > What do I miss? >> > >> > I think primarily me wanting to figure out the encap we use within the >> BIER- >> > ROLL domain: RFC8296 vs. 6LowPan+extensions. >> > >> > Cheers >> > Toerless >> > >> > > Take care, >> > > >> > > Pascal >> > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- >> > > > From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> >> > > > Sent: vendredi 19 octobre 2018 15:14 >> > > > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> >> > > > Cc: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; roll-bier-dt@ietf.org >> > > > Subject: Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt >> > > > >> > > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 12:36:06PM +0000, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) >> > wrote: >> > > > > Hello Toerless: >> > > > > >> > > > > Well, there is as Carsten says a multicast support for RPL storing >> > > > > mode, but not >> > > > for non-storing. This is where Carsten's draft comes in to play. >> > > > >> > > > Sure. As said, i may not have correctly captured what Mcr was >> > > > explaining, >> > > > >> > > > > In normal BIER, the bits indicate the routers, don't they? So >> > > > > there's an IP >> > > > packet inside, correct, like in my tunnel mode? But then I expect it >> > > > is the same packet for all destinations. So how does htat work, is >> > > > it a mcast packet or do all the destination have a same IP address? >> > > > >> > > > "Proper BIER" (TM) (the stuff done by BIER-WG) has defined its own >> > > > encapsulation header (RFC8296) that sits on top of MPLS or ethernet >> > > > and that has its own next-proto field/registry, so it can be >> > > > followed by IP or anything else that BIER-WG feels deserves a code >> point in >> > that registry. >> > > > >> > > > Cheers >> > > > Toerless >> > > > >> > > > > Pascal >> > > > > >> > > > > > -----Original Message----- >> > > > > > From: Roll-bier-dt <roll-bier-dt-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of >> > > > > > Toerless Eckert >> > > > > > Sent: vendredi 19 octobre 2018 14:21 >> > > > > > To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org <cabo@tzi..org>> >> > > > > > Cc: roll-bier-dt@ietf.org >> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt >> > > > > > >> > > > > > That was me taking notes what Michael said, and maybe i didn't >> > > > > > transcribe it correctly. Hope Michael is subscribed here to >> answer. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I think i was more wondering about the suport of compressed IP >> > > > > > multicast headders in 6LowPan because that is unclear to me and >> > > > > > we probably need to take one of the DT meetings to detail more >> > > > > > what extensions we need to do for 6LowPan to support BIER. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Cheers >> > > > > > Toerless >> > > > > > >> > > > > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 07:45:50AM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> > > > > > > On Oct 19, 2018, at 04:56, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> >> wrote: >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/toerless/roll-bier/master/ >> <https://raw.githubusercontent..com/toerless/roll-bier/master/> >> > > > > > > > note >> > > > > > > > s/18 >> > > > > > > > 1017-roll-bier-notes.txt >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > What do you mean with ???RPL does not support multicast.???? >> > MOP=3? >> > > > > > > (That is of course storing mode only, and storing mode >> > > > > > > doesn???t exist :-), so >> > > > > > you have a point. >> > > > > > > That???s why we did ccast, to fill in multicast for >> > > > > > > non-storing >> > > > > > > mode.) >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Grüße, Carsten >> > > > > > >> > > > > > -- >> > > > > > --- >> > > > > > tte@cs.fau.de >> > > > > > >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > > > Roll-bier-dt mailing list >> > > > > > Roll-bier-dt@ietf.org >> > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/roll-bier-dt >> > > > >> > > > -- >> > > > --- >> > > > tte@cs.fau.de >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Roll-bier-dt mailing list >> > > Roll-bier-dt@ietf.org >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/roll-bier-dt >> > >> > -- >> > --- >> > tte@cs.fau.de >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Roll-bier-dt mailing list >> Roll-bier-dt@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/roll-bier-dt >> > _______________________________________________ > Roll-bier-dt mailing list > Roll-bier-dt@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/roll-bier-dt >
- [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Greg Shepherd
- Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt Tony Przygienda