Re: [Roll] John Scudder's Discuss on draft-ietf-roll-aodv-rpl-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net> Tue, 20 April 2021 15:09 UTC

Return-Path: <jgs@juniper.net>
X-Original-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: roll@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 464893A276C; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 08:09:12 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net header.b=kjrKVWue; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=juniper.net header.b=Tcx/o6wL
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id agYBLzK8eGXY; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 08:09:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com [208.84.65.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D9753A2769; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 08:09:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from pps.filterd (m0108158.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (8.16.0.43/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 13KF7uOC008813; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 08:09:04 -0700
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : mime-version; s=PPS1017; bh=Tk/OnQeNA+aPwoQIltwtFwr6c14VKO6A7CXRFfd3DfM=; b=kjrKVWueMJn9WZ0GKCrEqtexV4Lz18+kPI8ovMM7bs1U4HcK23m3HAx/WabCNECBcDnG rYD7pTANHhsbUHcNu4XjO5BVUSY0Oi2w/qIsIFqB2IZ8EGGMIUr0RjOEp6p4enCsx/Qj 1A97sNTcZ9xVWvPKVhYqzqaDT/IRVtxfuPQd+jIFSSElPe1VrqImqQ7JtXo97n0wVq19 vEcU/x95x/9cSgRoTiKc66GV+qKxlP73WPS62Hd0isqt0CDPSulQJx3GsApdf3eR746+ bcl7BqO60XOFmlMeUDCGOlQDSNvRuxJ6gcWS+BHoj+BviK0z0dS8ZKrslkU0MWwEuocW 7Q==
Received: from nam11-bn8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn8nam11lp2171.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.58.171]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 381exe1urb-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 20 Apr 2021 08:09:03 -0700
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=HfgyfBfcHxKXFPH9F89s2PQ63n6A45WVns/JDBEeZ3Lzt/4j18F4fwekcSA31vJkzaVr1JsDBVNaDb3up0XQu3mQxnjbd3j1EWcRJjT2jAZpQe1qvpQl/pZlO0RwzwbSrk6jdq+2JaUiWhCsPFIC2V/vlfsKJ1yl3bjL4s7EuhdDpAW5FpJUk4t7Z9UPt06fMg5eNHhp6T6ol5hraEf0aPsaMs5Nddp4UIZDisxmIjFJU1x04STZWNVFK64uH5vjDPZSwEOt1AUeOcrcJJxipblUcgDfVzDovdmhOEX0PZKIoQilRJ2BFQLeNcudWF9W2q8OfTofQCaB/kJQtgZWjw==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Tk/OnQeNA+aPwoQIltwtFwr6c14VKO6A7CXRFfd3DfM=; b=myLyLKLYVCgVtCQWKEF6HANWBlYhU+ZcekT3ovLQzm2CvrERE7FGGuhzE3qEC9wjf7ago1MPk1zly+AAljnEOKqHXKpsZgnnl+mmQD0wv7d4W4IvtNZMlH6aEHlJuFJg+zJyt1s8qRe63sXZRvZeqsOWuv8qOja6Ci7dIgwuS5nT2tWwzETMRti9fD+eQ0Pu6vvUt/x1knmeBkXu/ODuBTaVzvlRpWN06503WT0o8gU6R0k2qnVT8du9YHcgwmnKi2KW7Y8xnu2P6nNbVaDlfbaMZskGWmMbVofyKULm33FTeAVFX0N4RNhabS9iP3J+z0R1MpI/mqpjpio7FoPNWA==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=juniper.net; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=juniper.net; dkim=pass header.d=juniper.net; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Tk/OnQeNA+aPwoQIltwtFwr6c14VKO6A7CXRFfd3DfM=; b=Tcx/o6wLjtMtm4uDTpXeo+Bnmump1dXOo8o3XFL3O1YfaohAcLQ8JHNaTPvmX/21rFrHK8SRGSJPlDrlE13SEWPe8daPvUu+xs1IHrzddDaLV90WmNgeFr1nfBiUmmBozIWXCV1rIRbx5IJyMa2VLsVOmmpFsEoiTTkOEItpabw=
Received: from MN2PR05MB6109.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:c4::20) by BLAPR05MB7299.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:29a::8) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4065.6; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 15:09:01 +0000
Received: from MN2PR05MB6109.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3020:ac3:590d:83f1]) by MN2PR05MB6109.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3020:ac3:590d:83f1%5]) with mapi id 15.20.4065.019; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 15:09:01 +0000
From: John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net>
To: Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: "draft-ietf-roll-aodv-rpl@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-roll-aodv-rpl@ietf.org>, "roll@ietf.org" <roll@ietf.org>, "roll-chairs@ietf.org" <roll-chairs@ietf.org>, Ines Robles <mariainesrobles@googlemail.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: John Scudder's Discuss on draft-ietf-roll-aodv-rpl-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Thread-Index: AQHXNVsZVxHxg8VYVkSdat85+ymoxKq9f5YAgAAD5IA=
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 15:09:01 +0000
Message-ID: <1877C29A-5991-4D8A-9230-04697ECAB0CA@juniper.net>
References: <161886431878.23690.10633892549620498188@ietfa.amsl.com> <CAMMESsxBW_-jLybbeH7uUKSDchjE6mxgPmN4sXb6cj67fFzRBw@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAMMESsxBW_-jLybbeH7uUKSDchjE6mxgPmN4sXb6cj67fFzRBw@mail.gmail.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4)
authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=juniper.net;
x-originating-ip: [162.225.191.192]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 42d9c4ca-8a94-4ff9-f266-08d9040e3b21
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BLAPR05MB7299:
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <BLAPR05MB729935299B3F4419E04639ADAA489@BLAPR05MB7299.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882;
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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
x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:MN2PR05MB6109.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(136003)(346002)(39850400004)(396003)(366004)(376002)(64756008)(76116006)(91956017)(6486002)(6512007)(33656002)(122000001)(2616005)(66446008)(8676002)(6506007)(6916009)(26005)(8936002)(66476007)(66556008)(36756003)(66946007)(478600001)(53546011)(4326008)(186003)(54906003)(38100700002)(5660300002)(2906002)(316002)(71200400001)(86362001)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102;
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: =?utf-8?B?YzBkQ0FSSHNOMzVhYm8vb3Z2RFFpQkI4UTMyc3ZNZlZSMzAxNGlhSDlQQWFy?= =?utf-8?B?bEZ6dllYbWZVaUUzQ2V3MDZDRVpxRm1zRWZMdHZ6cXRuY0ZrTjQ5dlBpRkxL?= =?utf-8?B?Y0taeVpNTzVUNU9qUUltR0dFamlLVC9JUmlXS0U4bk4zbDlDUGExZUdMTGJx?= =?utf-8?B?SmpBOGZIMWM1SzY5Z3I0WEVCTkxKVnIxZ0F0eVJuVTlheDhtOVRkYzN6bGdN?= =?utf-8?B?RjVDS2ZIWVIxVWNHaTRiWUprUkc4SzFudUNwaVJBM3ZWRW12OUFibHFNa2ZI?= =?utf-8?B?SlA4MnVxdnhOempqSXNSbW5hNHR5Wk5xUWdDWUlsTEdXZ21LYlJtUEN1cTEv?= =?utf-8?B?UklsdWQ5bWhFZHhJVGd4aE9ON085cnhQTjUvK2pSWGw4d0RMUGhLTFNiRmJB?= =?utf-8?B?dWZjZURxV3RxN2p2WWNoOEN2M2w1UkZiRFBURXdwem9WZ3Z3a1MrcEM0Szlp?= =?utf-8?B?cnIzRitQTXpiTXBpeGhOUXJHdk95OTc4K1pwQUp1eWtHakZTaElSSjdkaHZ4?= =?utf-8?B?cFY0eUo2QVpsWklBenhCZmR4ZjBPbm1mSGN4TWVNUFZ6ckVNcE1SakdPeGtm?= =?utf-8?B?ZnlldlA5UnlEdVFZRWYvQ09mbFJoc3gwRlVlSUhHUnliVkR6VStWY25OYmFi?= =?utf-8?B?Uy9reFR1bWJzVmwxcE4rSFZTOVYrMG1Ta2hXM3grVTNaL0xzZHEyMkxKUTVx?= =?utf-8?B?OU5vcDNGQ1l1RDFWSFYxcWQrNjE1emdGcFhLZGVUNE9kSHNQS0tOU1VwL2pR?= =?utf-8?B?TjBDcThQdVBncmx4TzdueFZCTUx5YWgzREV3eFZsMUpVVjIzaktMSm5Ya3BE?= =?utf-8?B?NDQrYVBRTDYwMVdaTE4ybFRzejdLVWZmMHk5WmM3SXpBNnpvUGlYRS9BOExB?= =?utf-8?B?MW1DTjMvR1RQT0ZhVkZkdGNmeEt1TXlDdmM0WXphTDhOMWhwUTU4WGp1S3Br?= =?utf-8?B?dVJ4RmZmRDI3YjBrS0lpQ3ZaSGJUVksvc0pzNWFQRkNVZk1SYmhlMWZ3a3Rt?= =?utf-8?B?K3g4QVZEdXRHVWRkM203ZmpJZklyTGZwZ2xEVW5iRGhzZWg4RGI1QmZBcjQ5?= =?utf-8?B?Q0pYNi9pTEdJUkNqVUcvTnhFLzkwUkJZcFhJS2tWM1UrYWdQSkRFT0xUa0ZD?= =?utf-8?B?SjhJRlY0elhrUDNaSlI1ZUJXTHhTaHd1MG5LRHFSMnBZNkpCMVNxSXIxMXR3?= =?utf-8?B?cjdydC9lVE1mUjVzZE1VcGlGU2NyeUJYZTYwMy9INjROWWxQVEk3NVFpeENt?= =?utf-8?B?L2FQWUF4b09tbGZlU01RNy94REpNTGdNU25UaGg4TEZXM1BuNGtrSGdTNzRV?= =?utf-8?B?bWdXN1lOWGFmeTZwYVF2d0QyY2RwQ21ZWHFWM2FYQTRvbHdJN3FObnRrbUc4?= =?utf-8?B?aGc3N2hSQW03QTJWWEdCdXpoQ1NrZjZxaVNkVEVENWxxT1d0Q0UyYjFJaVVN?= =?utf-8?B?dksrWEZGV3FuZVNNa3FhV3h2SGVqdnZmV2E0VktSZER2eGVaYmM4OGRtRDJ5?= =?utf-8?B?VVV6UmhsamJlamt0bTgwQ0Ixb1F6dzQyOGY2b0wwZkRkcFFtMUNHK1J0T1I4?= =?utf-8?B?c2JKdEFaUUc5dk1xWnJidjZBMS9nZStvNm8rdjUxTXlydFd6ZWdDUU9xUHNR?= =?utf-8?B?M2tNSnUyRkgxaVU4ditvNFc1bTI5end2NGtRc1N2TlVlQklpUE5SRWwzR2Vi?= =?utf-8?B?OGtLYkZnTWQ0OW5kZE4yUU9GWCtpUDFMNnMwbVhSZkU1WmpINWtKQ0U2UDNa?= =?utf-8?B?OEtWQTJrUWV3eEhiRFgzbjQrQlIyTTFYQ29sRExwclFlaXVOMmN4di8zd2Ur?= =?utf-8?B?aHJoOTcrL21uRFNJWnJiUT09?=
x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1877C29A59914D8A923004697ECAB0CAjunipernet_"
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR05MB6109.namprd05.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 42d9c4ca-8a94-4ff9-f266-08d9040e3b21
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Apr 2021 15:09:01.6330 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: uofCN6T6XKwC6+YD9vY26BWRbiwQpa931e0nxtFvfNlWlM6X8WrXWh7kfqZWdQbU
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BLAPR05MB7299
X-Proofpoint-GUID: eq97HQN4DHMJ_I2zhre5dWl8SkG5PH11
X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: eq97HQN4DHMJ_I2zhre5dWl8SkG5PH11
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-04-20_07:2021-04-20, 2021-04-20 signatures=0
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=1 malwarescore=0 clxscore=1011 impostorscore=0 spamscore=1 lowpriorityscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=1 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=196 priorityscore=1501 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104200113
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/roll/3RzCvrc-PQcsaSjyjzxgILwnkD8>
Subject: Re: [Roll] John Scudder's Discuss on draft-ietf-roll-aodv-rpl-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
X-BeenThere: roll@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks <roll.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/roll>, <mailto:roll-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/roll/>
List-Post: <mailto:roll@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:roll-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/roll>, <mailto:roll-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 15:09:12 -0000

Hi Alvaro,

I have one partial reply below, but I think we might benefit from a short phone call. I’ll unicast you some times that would work for me.

On Apr 20, 2021, at 10:55 AM, Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com<mailto:aretana.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
...
Further, it’s not stated anywhere whether AODV-RPL is intended to stand
alone as its own routing protocol, or to be viewed as an extension of RPL.
In the former case, it seems the document is lacking details that are present
in RFC 6550. I’m assuming the latter is the case, but a clear statement to
that effect seems indicated.

AODV-RPL uses a new Mode of Operation (MOP) dedicated to the discovery
of p2p routes.  This means that it runs in a separate instance from
the "base RPL".  Also, it can be used whether or not a "base RPL"
instance is used.  IOW, it is RPL using MOP 5.

This doesn’t really clear up my concern, which I can rephrase this way: I’m pretty sure AODV-RPL, standing alone, isn’t an implementable specification. If it assumes that all the protocol machinery of RFC 6550 is present, then I’m willing to accept on faith that the gaps are filled that way, but this needs to be said. If it doesn’t assume that all of RFC 6550 is present, then I think it should call out by reference what the required parts are.

I haven’t tried to go through the document and say “this isn’t implementable because you left out this, and that, and so on” because so far my guess is it’s assumed that the entire base of RFC 6550 is available, so it wouldn’t be a good use of anyone’s time to produce that kind of review.

—John