Re: [Roll] [6lo] WGLC for draft-thubert-6man-flow-label-for-rpl-03

Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Sat, 16 August 2014 01:12 UTC

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Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 13:12:54 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
References: <E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842D189A1@xmb-rcd-x01.cisco.com> <406B5D64-4F0E-4E71-BC60-A113FB367652@gmail.com> <46112F69-05F0-4E50-A808-287B06AE8E5F@cs.stanford.edu> <E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842D1A9FA@xmb-rcd-x01.cisco.com> <057EC9C6-07FF-409B-A3BC-3348A5F43AB3@gmail.com> <53E534E8.4050304@gmail.com> <F7618DE0-7217-46C2-93A1-CE050085E7AB@employees.org> <53E926EB.9000505@gmail.com> <CAP+sJUfDyNa=t=+C=QXy8MmvG9rAUxA0mTsXL7xSWAeLUR1qcQ@mail.gmail.com> <53EAA58D.4060401@gmail.com> <4C8FA2D5-7FD5-40A0-9D98-081BEC6A0480@tzi.org> <E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842D3BED8@xmb-rcd-x01.cisco.com> <6454DDD1-9A3F-4F46-9493-7307BEC01F4D@cs.stanford.edu> <53EBD028.30302@gmail.com> <E045AECD98228444A58C61C200AE1BD842D3E4EF@xmb-rcd-x01.cisco.com>, <53ED1992.1010708@gmail.com> <755F123A-A93F-4146-BD4C-4022CD8CE13E@cisco.com>
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Cc: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks <roll@ietf.org>, Ines Robles <mariainesrobles@googlemail.com>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, "6lo@ietf.org WG" <6lo@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Roll] [6lo] WGLC for draft-thubert-6man-flow-label-for-rpl-03
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On 15/08/2014 20:51, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
> Hello Brian
> 
> I do not think that ISA10011.a violates RFC 3697. What exactly made you believe so?

I was over-interpreting what you wrote, I guess. It's true that 3697 was rather
vague about what it called "flow state establishment methods" and permitted
both sequential and pseudo-random flow label values. Is the ISA10011.a
on line somewhere?

> For all I know ISA100 does everything by the book. Note that ISA100 does not update a non zero FL on the fly since it is not set by a source outside the LLN if that is your concern.
> 
> OTOH It may violate RFC 6437 in that the flow is not a random but a value attributed by a PCE called system manager (along rules in section 4). As things stand, we'd certainly want the backbone router at LLN egress to rewrite the FL in packets towards the Internet with a randomized per flow value.
> 
> It will violate RFC 6437 because if the flow label is set by a router in the Internet - or an updated source that complies to 6437-, the backbone router at LLN Ingress will rewrite it.
> 
> Both issues are addressed in my draft for a RPL domain. An RFC will also hint a revision of the backbone router that it should rewrite the FL on outgoing packets.
>
> What do you think?

I think that Phil's last message frames the question to 6man correctly,
so I will respond to him...

Regards
    Brian
> 
> Pascal
> 
>> Le 14 août 2014 à 22:18, "Brian E Carpenter" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> a écrit :
>>
>>> On 14/08/2014 22:28, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote:
>>> We can live with this Brian, 
>>>
>>> but then I can we add at least an ISA100.11a network? ISA100.11a was designed in 2007/8, adopted IPv6 and 6LoWPAN, and uses the IPv6 flow label to indicate which flow a packet belongs to.
>> I have no idea what ISA100.11a is or which organisation developed
>> it, but it sounds like a violation of the flow label standard at that
>> time (RFC 3697). If I'd known about it, we would probably have included
>> it in the menagerie of RFC 6294.
>>
>> There's not much the IETF can do about other organisations that
>> misuse our standards, although indeed we sometimes need to
>> document such cases.
>>
>>   Brian
>>
>>
>> In more details, devices are provisioned with per-flow behavior (including routing) and settings in what is called a contract.
>> The contractID is carried in the IPv6 flow label.
>>> If so should we name ISA100 specifically or use a more vague description like a "RPL or similar LLN domain" 
>>> We'll note that resetting an flow label that comes from the Internet is a generic need is that flow label was set according to 6437, cannot be trusted to be untempered with, 
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Pascal
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E Carpenter
>>>> Sent: mercredi 13 août 2014 22:53
>>>> To: Philip Levis
>>>> Cc: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks; Ines Robles; 6man WG;
>>>> 6lo@ietf.org WG
>>>> Subject: Re: [Roll] [6lo] WGLC for draft-thubert-6man-flow-label-for-rpl-03
>>>>
>>>>> On 14/08/2014 07:07, Philip Levis wrote:
>>>>> On Aug 13, 2014, at 9:48 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
>>>> <pthubert@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>>>> If this draft is not adopted, the flow label from LLN will probably stay all
>>>> zeroes as it is today and the goal of 6437 will not be achieved.
>>>>> Pascal, I'm trying to reconcile your claim that the goal of 6437 is to
>>>>> allow enclosed networks to use the flow label with Brian's statement
>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually that's why I don't want to see a formal update to 6437,
>>>>>> because the only rational update would be to allow any closed domain
>>>>>> to invent its own usage. We had that argument at length during the
>>>>>> development of 6437, and decided against it.
>>>>> Phil
>>>> Right. I'm drawing a very subtle line between (a) stating an exception to 6437
>>>> for this particular usage and (b) opening the door to other usages. Since
>>>> 6man clearly didn't want (b) during the development of
>>>> 6437 I think we do need to limit ourselves to (a).
>>>>
>>>>    Brian
>>>>
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>