Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document, MTI (again, still, sorry)
Andrew Allen <aallen@blackberry.com> Thu, 04 December 2014 01:42 UTC
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From: Andrew Allen <aallen@blackberry.com>
To: Silvia Pfeiffer <silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com>, David Singer <singer@apple.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document, MTI (again, still, sorry)
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Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 01:42:19 +0000
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document, MTI (again, still, sorry)
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Silvia It is not usually the small companies that get sued in patent cases. Its companies with assets and significant revenues that get the lawsuits. Nobody sues the penniless! - thats like suing the homeless! Andrew Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. From: Silvia Pfeiffer Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2014 19:28 To: David Singer Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document, MTI (again, still, sorry) On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 5:33 AM, David Singer <singer@apple.com> wrote: > As I understand it, the recent face to face meeting decided to draft the requirement that WebRTC browsers be required to implement both VP8 and H.264, and get feedback on this, on the list. > > This is some feedback. > > > > I’d like to point out that this could easily place companies in an impossible position. > > Consider: it is not uncommon for IPR owners to grant a license (often free) only to ‘conforming implementations’. (A common rationale is that they want to use their IPR to bring convergence and interoperability to the industry). Let’s hypothesize that this happens, now or in future, from Company X, for some IPR in the WebRTC specifications. > > Consider also: we have an “unwilling to license” statement from Nokia on VP8, on the formal record (and including a long list of patents). > > Consider finally: a small company for whom WebRTC is important. > > > > Let’s look at the choices: > > 1. Follow the mandate, implement VP8, and risk a ruinous lawsuit from Nokia. > > 2. Reject the mandate, do not implement VP8, and be formally therefore not conformant and therefore not in receipt of a license from company X; risk a ruinous lawsuit from X. > > 3. Do not implement WebRTC, and risk a ruinous loss of relevance. I don't see the risk of 1. having changed because of the IETF's statement. Plenty of small companies are already doing 1. and have had to risk getting sued by Nokia at this point in time already. In fact, it's a risk that small companies always have to deal with since there is so much patented technology around that you invariable will step on something. I doubt very much that the IETF's decision has any impact on small business' risk in that space at all. > I do not think that the IETF should be placing anyone into the position of having three extremely unpalatable choices. For a small company in the WebRTC space, 3. is a non-choice. 2. Is more of a business decision than an IP decision - which market are you trying to address? Are you trying to be interoperable with (current) browsers - then implement VP8. Are you trying to be interoperable with legacy devices - then implement H.264 (and probably even H.263). If you are trying to argue for a large company, the situation changes. However, as a large company, you tend to have an existing portfolio of patents. You're already playing the game of patents. As long as your hypothetical "IPR owners to grant a license only to ‘conforming implementations’" doesn't happen, you are free to choose 2. and avoid Nokia. As for the threat in your option 2. - I can only see Google with IPR around VP8. Now, Google's IPR statement on WebM codecs, which includes VP8 and VP9 currently states: "Google hereby grants to you a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable (except as stated in this section) patent license" http://www.webmproject.org/license/additional/ The word "perpetual" implies (to my non-lawyer eyes) that they can't suddenly change this to mean "only if you are conformant to the standard". So you can't be referring to such a risk associated with VP8 being created by Google. I don't know which other company you would want to be afraid of for your hypothetical threat in 2. Could you clarify? Best Regards, Silvia. > (Yes, I am aware that #2 is ‘unlikely’, but one day someone will decide that the “only to conformant implementations” clause needs to be real and enforced, and will do this; our hypothetical small company might prefer not to be the example case.) > > (I use a small company as the example, because for them the risk is bankruptcy, but of course no-one likes to step into the path of trouble even if they have the resources to weather it.) > > Dave Singer > > singer@mac.com > > David Singer > Manager, Software Standards, Apple Inc. > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
- [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Victor Pascual Avila
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Lorenzo Miniero
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Mohammed Raad
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Mohammed Raad
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec documen… Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document John Leslie
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Finishing up the Video Codec document Iñaki Baz Castillo