Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third parties [Was Re:Proposal for H.263 baseline codec]
"Paul E. Jones" <paulej@packetizer.com> Thu, 19 April 2012 03:48 UTC
Return-Path: <paulej@packetizer.com>
X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC53411E807F for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 20:48:25 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.011
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.012, BAYES_50=0.001]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Se8uam+BENNw for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 20:48:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from dublin.packetizer.com (dublin.packetizer.com [75.101.130.125]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8390211E8075 for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 20:48:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from sydney (rrcs-98-101-148-48.midsouth.biz.rr.com [98.101.148.48]) (authenticated bits=0) by dublin.packetizer.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q3J3mE7N017997 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 18 Apr 2012 23:48:15 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=packetizer.com; s=dublin; t=1334807296; bh=fw9XpGFdnar2B1v5m5QQx2mxgH3scRCNng87benahEo=; h=From:To:Cc:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=gcY0/se+X0+oOAhr/zi+NX7vZFUmYuw2cMqFu8jMKHZylk28CvqZOotj0KljTbyqn xfTvW+IkuzKhhDs5DDzyZblE9DJu3qmMAknvcSzCv5yH0Mcy7Ykut8sG6I3Ao5DHtT MtY3vpkCI+lKVRSbmyo1K06sVid7AO4PrJskyN4o=
From: "Paul E. Jones" <paulej@packetizer.com>
To: "'Olle E. Johansson'" <oej@edvina.net>, "'Kevin P. Fleming'" <kpfleming@digium.com>
References: <CAMKM2Ly-xnVEciL941uOu1Bgwc-wssZ7HNkQuBhsCcgyqfuk5Q@mail.gmail.com> <03ac01cd120d$0ffe95f0$2ffbc1d0$@packetizer.com> <4F7BCD1A.7020508@librevideo.org> <03e301cd1223$153e6b60$3fbb4220$@packetizer.com> <4F7C4FB4.4070703@librevideo.org> <007b01cd12f7$fbcd72e0$f36858a0$@packetizer.com> <CAOHm=4tqcwmU9OJNYv4-x4GO6z4AYijd3LFcQq=q1_210FhyJg@mail.gmail.com> <C61152E2-AA0A-4EA1-A4E9-CFE526A3A808@edvina.net> <4F86FE57.8070704@digium.com> <D58D7B5F-624F-4271-B9FF-B7AB2BB670CE@edvina.net>
In-Reply-To: <D58D7B5F-624F-4271-B9FF-B7AB2BB670CE@edvina.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 23:48:33 -0400
Message-ID: <06d401cd1ddf$4bf78e80$e3e6ab80$@packetizer.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0
Thread-Index: AQB2060nC5aqi+YrENoaiW0zV5P0JgFWJR9uAc/AjNwB1VzUBAGtdKoUAdUR/YICM5hPIgEftaPaAd+SP4UB8tiC0ZjQ80UA
Content-Language: en-us
Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third parties [Was Re:Proposal for H.263 baseline codec]
X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list <rtcweb.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb>
List-Post: <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 03:48:26 -0000
Olle, > 12 apr 2012 kl. 18:09 skrev Kevin P. Fleming: > > > On 04/12/2012 02:21 AM, Olle E. Johansson wrote: > > > >> This is really bad news for Open Source. Even if we try to get a way to > pay for licenses, our business model is far away from understandable for > most of the syndicates. I tried with the AMR codec once and it stopped at > initial order quantity. Anything under 10.000 licenses was not up for > discussion. Would a patent holder even both with litigation if the patent owner fely that licensing in quantities of less than 10,000 units is not worth the money? Likely not. Litigation is expensive and patent trolls will only do it if there is money to be made. Legitimate companies do not sue unless there is either profit to be made or (as with the Microsoft/Motorola case) there is big money at stake related to something bigger than what the legal case is over. That said, there is always the risk of getting sued before you can get the front doors to your small business propped open. Still, one cannot stop out of fear of legal action. Half the companies in Silicon Valley would never have opened if they concerned themselves too much with patents. However, if successful, a day will come when it's "time to pay the fiddler his due." And when that day comes, there is some comfort in knowing who you go to in order to license the technology you are using. > >> G.729 is available on one-by-one basis which both Asterisk and > FreeSwitch sell to users... I have no insight into how these agreements > was worked out, but it at least indicates that someone tries to open up. > > > > It is my understanding that the licensing arrangements that have been > made for G.729 are no longer an option for new licensees (not offered by > the consortium), and to my knowledge such arrangements have never been an > option for any of the other voice/video codecs that our customers have > asked us about (including H.264, the AMR family and others). > > And isn't that a shame. The question here for the legal department is > wether Google's policies in regards to VP8 is enough for companies like > you to work with it in either binary addons or Open Source code? Does it > provide enough liability assurance? Google's policies will not prevent you from getting sued one day when successful. What would make me feel better is if Google could indemnify people. If they feel they own all of the technology in VP8, they could indemnify people. I would be pleasantly surprised if their legal team truly feels so confident that they own all of the technology in VP8, though. With H.264, you know where to go license technology once you start to see a little success. The IPR holders are known. I cannot imagine a troll out there who wouldn't have already filed a lawsuit by now. (And I'll note again that VP8 might even have elements that are covered by IPR holders who also own IPR on H.264 and who may not be so willing to license it for use with VP8. I see a definite business risk there that I don't see with AMR or H.264.) > I think that question is where we are right now. > > If not, will Google try to offer a solution? I would not suggest you hold your breath :-) I applaud Google for taking the steps it has taken so far, but I do not think there is more they can offer than what they have already. Paul
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Basil Mohamed Gohar
- [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third partie… Serge Lachapelle
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Paul E. Jones
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Paul E. Jones
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Serge Lachapelle
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Paul E. Jones
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Paul E. Jones
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Paul E. Jones
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Paul E. Jones
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Dean Willis
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Monty Montgomery
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Paul E. Jones
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Dean Willis
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Dean Willis
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Dean Willis
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Paul E. Jones
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Erik Lagerway
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Kevin P. Fleming
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Paul E. Jones
- Re: [rtcweb] Google VP8 Patent Grant for third pa… Paul E. Jones