Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated...If not now, when"
Kaiduan Xie <kaiduanx@gmail.com> Wed, 13 November 2013 21:57 UTC
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References: <5282A340.7010405@gondwanaland.com> <20131113165526.GA13468@verdi> <5283E700.5090300@bbs.darktech.org>
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 16:57:14 -0500
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From: Kaiduan Xie <kaiduanx@gmail.com>
To: cowwoc <cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated...If not now, when"
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"if an implementer gets sued they can simply drop the codec" Thing is not that simple as "simply drop the codec", for some case you still have to pay a lot of money. /Kaiduan On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 3:54 PM, cowwoc <cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org> wrote: > Hi John, > > First, thanks for summarize the positions brought up in the meeting. > > A few weeks ago I advocated making both H.264 and VP8 MTI with the > reasoning that if an implementer gets sued they can simply drop the codec, > notify the community, and have that codec removed en-mass from the > specification. A few months later we would replace it with another MTI > codec. According to what you wrote above, Cisco is under the impression > that once a codec is MTI they cannot drop it even if they get sued. > > Practically speaking, is that really true? I mean, if the specification > requires everyone to implement both VP8 and H.264 and one implementer > temporarily drops one of the codecs, shouldn't things keep on working until > the lawsuit is over (codec returns) or the community replaces the codec > with another? > > Thanks, > Gili > > > On 13/11/2013 11:55 AM, John Leslie wrote: > >> Mike Linksvayer <ml@gondwanaland.com> wrote: >> >>> I strongly support VP8 for MTI, and oppose H.264. Undecided on which >>> of both, either, or neither would be second best. >>> >> I'm _very_ glad you care which is "second best!" >> >> I went into last week's session quite prepared to accept either, both >> or neither. I came out unwilling to support _either_ as MTI. >> >> This is mostly because I came to understand the "cisco" postition. >> >> (Please excuse me for assigning names to the two main positions, but >> it will make the discussion _much_ simpler.) >> >> The "cisco" position is: >> >> - look at all the H.264 hardware out there: we must make use of it; >> - if VP8 is MTI, we'll get sued and our customers will get hassled. >> >> The "linux" position is: >> >> - look at all the VP8 software out there: we must make use of it; >> - if H.264 is MTI, we'll get sued and our customers will get hassled. >> >> And, alas, they're both right. >> >> What I didn't understand before the presentations was why Cisco >> believes they'll get sued over VP8, but not H.264. >> >> Basically H.264 has quite a consortium to slap down the likes of >> Nokia in court should they sue anyone in the consortium. This greatly >> reduces the chance of Nokia's lawyer suing. >> >> But this consortium won't lift a finger if Nokia sues Cisco over >> VP8. Cisco is a _very_ attractive target over VP8. >> >> Thus, Cisco management would _very_much_ prefer that VP8 _not_ be >> MTI. They probably won't implement it. >> >> Conversely, of course, "linux" management would _very_much_ prefer >> that H.264 not be MTI. They probably won't implement it. >> >> Understanding this, I now strongly recommend against making either >> H.264 or VP8 MTI. (And I will not consent to a RFC 3929 process limited >> to choosing between them.) >> >> This issue has dragged on long enough already. We need to start >> reading the riot act to the folks who claim we "need" either of these >> as MTI in order to have "satisfied" users. >> >> Both H.264 and VP8 deserve "SHOULD implement" status. Neither, >> IMHO, will achieve consensus for "MUST implement" status. Yes, this >> is a sorry state to find ourselves in. But the marketplace has >> sorted out much worse problems in my memory. >> >> And I claim that both camps are actually more likely to implement >> (or allow extensions for) the other side's codec if it is _not_ MTI, >> simply because they can back out at the first sign of lawyers. >> >> I will not go into any details about how VP8 endpoints might talk >> to H.264 endpoints, but I'm _very_ confident ways will be found if >> we actually _publish_ an RFC saying both are "SHOULD implement". >> >> (Surely I'm not the _only_ person who'd like to see _both_ H.264 >> and VP8 legacy devices using our standard...) >> >> -- >> John Leslie <john@jlc.net> >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >
- [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated...If… Mike Linksvayer
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… David Singer
- [rtcweb] where that h264 plugin can be used Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… John Leslie
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] where that h264 plugin can be used Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Kaiduan Xie
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Michael Thornburgh
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Philipp Hancke
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Philipp Hancke
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Jonathan Rosenberg
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Gili
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Maik Merten
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Göran Eriksson AP
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Leon Geyser
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Gili
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… John Leslie
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… John Leslie
- Re: [rtcweb] where that h264 plugin can be used Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Marco Stura
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Kaiduan Xie