Re: [rtcweb] Agenda time request for draft-marjou-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-01

Andrew Allen <aallen@blackberry.com> Wed, 13 March 2013 23:01 UTC

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From: Andrew Allen <aallen@blackberry.com>
To: "stephane.proust@orange.com" <stephane.proust@orange.com>, "Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com" <Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com>, "jmvalin@mozilla.com" <jmvalin@mozilla.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Agenda time request for draft-marjou-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-01
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Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:00:54 +0000
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>, "xavier.marjou@orange.com" <xavier.marjou@orange.com>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda time request for draft-marjou-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-01
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I think the if available to the browser text applies to all codecs regardless of whether there are billions or only hundreds of other devices that support a codec.

It shoulld be appreciated that the number of devices supporting a particular codec are snapshots in time and this will likely change - either increasing or decreasing in the future and the specifications we write now should be as future proof as possible and not have a built in best before date.
 

----- Original Message -----
From: stephane.proust@orange.com [mailto:stephane.proust@orange.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 05:48 PM Central Standard Time
To: Andrew Allen; Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com <Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com>om>; jmvalin@mozilla.com <jmvalin@mozilla.com>
Cc: MARJOU Xavier OLNC/OLN <xavier.marjou@orange.com>om>; rtcweb@ietf.org <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [rtcweb] Agenda time	request	for	draft-marjou-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-01

The reason is simply that AMR and AMR-WB are supported in billions of devices !

Stéphane


-----Message d'origine-----
De : Andrew Allen [mailto:aallen@blackberry.com] 
Envoyé : mercredi 13 mars 2013 23:41
À : PROUST Stephane OLNC/OLPS; Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com; jmvalin@mozilla.com
Cc : MARJOU Xavier OLNC/OLN; rtcweb@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [rtcweb] Agenda time request for draft-marjou-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-01


No this wouldn't be acceptable to me. 

I don't see a reason to push a particular set of Codecs over any other set of codecs supported on the device. If the device supports the codecs and they are available to the browser then we should recommend that they be offered in the negotiation.

The marjou draft can advertise the merits and reasons why they are good codecs to support.


----- Original Message -----
From: stephane.proust@orange.com [mailto:stephane.proust@orange.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 05:14 PM Central Standard Time
To: Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com <Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com>om>; jmvalin@mozilla.com <jmvalin@mozilla.com>
Cc: MARJOU Xavier OLNC/OLN <xavier.marjou@orange.com>om>; rtcweb@ietf.org <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda time	request	for	draft-marjou-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-01

Dear Markus

Thanks for your attempt to help !

Of course each Telco can handle this directly with vendors and browsers manufacturers at business level. But I don't'think this need of interoperability with mobile devices is specific to Orange. I think all mobile operators will have the same issue and this is why standardization exist. It's most cost and time efficient to have one common way forward for all the industry.

Then if the issue is that "conditional MUST/SHOULD are a too complicated requirement. We could also live as a compromise with a formulation that has already been suggested on the reflector: 

"If other suitable audio codecs are available to the browser to use it is recommended that they are also included in the offer in order to maximize the possibility to establish the session without the need for audio transcoding"
If possible with the addition of
This is especially the case for AMR, AMR-WB for interoperability with mobile devices and G.722 for interoperability with fixed DECT CAT-iq devices

Would it have one chance to reach consensus ?

I think this Group should at least make one small step so that the interoperability issue with mobile terminals be not fully ignored in the RTC Web specification considering the huge number of deployed devices. At least something must be written on this ! G.711 which is the only codec in addition to OPUS for interoperability purpose is not a proper answer to this.

Stéphane

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com [mailto:Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com] Envoyé : mercredi 13 mars 2013 22:37 À : PROUST Stephane OLNC/OLPS; jmvalin@mozilla.com; MARJOU Xavier OLNC/OLN Cc : rtcweb@ietf.org Objet : RE: [rtcweb] Agenda time request for draft-marjou-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-01

Hi Stephane, Xavier,

I understand the intent of your proposal. I'm not sure if the IETF is the best venue for you to pursue it, however. Perhaps you as a mobile operator should rather set it as a requirement to your mobile device platforms that they open up the APIs to AMR and AMR-WB and that at least the in-built default browser needs to support it. If there are enough operators setting such requirements directly to the device and platform vendors, it probably has a bigger impact than an IETF RFC. Getting that support for user-installed additional browsers might be more difficult, but most mobile device users stick with the default browser anyway.

The RTCWEB codec document needs to definitely explain this case and the benefits, but the conditional MUSTs or SHOULDs you are proposing are perhaps a bit too complicated. Hmm, perhaps we need to do an _informational_ RFC as something like "Recommendations for WebRTC on Mobile Devices" addressing the codec and perhaps other issues, that you could use as a reference in your requirements.  

Markus


>-----Original Message-----
>From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On 
>Behalf Of ext stephane.proust@orange.com
>Sent: 13 March, 2013 21:37
>To: Jean-Marc Valin; MARJOU Xavier OLNC/OLN
>Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda time request for
>draft-marjou-rtcweb-audio-
>codecs-for-interop-01
>
>Hello
>
>Our understanding is that the reason of the "no consensus" on 
>additional recommended codecs was the additional costs for browsers.
>The proposal is then to make these "MUST" fully conditional to the case 
>of no (or very reduced) additional costs, when the codecs are already 
>available on the device and when no additional license fee is required
>
>We could even live with lower level of "requirements" with respectively 
>May and Should (instead of Should and shall) but we think that this 
>proposal is a way to take into account both browser manufacturers 
>concerns on browsers costs and telcos concerns on transcoding costs and 
>some other companies share this view.
>
>Stéphane
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Message d'origine-----
>De : rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] De la 
>part de Jean-Marc Valin Envoyé : mercredi 13 mars 2013 20:24 À : MARJOU 
>Xavier OLNC/OLN Cc : rtcweb@ietf.org Objet : Re: [rtcweb] Agenda time 
>request for
>draft-marjou-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-01
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Hi,
>
>I'd really like to understand how the chairs coming to the conclusion 
>that there was *no consensus* on recommended codecs can result in a 
>draft that includes 3 MUSTs and 1 SHOULD. This draft effectively makes
>3 new codecs MTI for a range of devices. I understand that it's an 
>individual draft and you can write whatever you like in there, but it 
>definitely goes against the result of the WG discussion.
>
>Cheers,
>
>	Jean-Marc
>
>On 03/13/2013 09:14 AM, Xavier Marjou wrote:
>> Here is a summary of the
>> draft-marjou-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-00 presentation that I 
>> had prepared for yesterday's session:
>>
>> - The co-authors want to underline that non-WebRTC voice endpoints 
>> usually use one of the following codecs: AMR, AMR-WB or G.722, which 
>> will result in massive transcoding when there will be communications 
>> between WebRTC endpoints and non-WebRTC endpoints.
>>
>> - On one side, transcoding is bad for many reasons discussed in the 
>> draft (cost issues, intrinsic quality degradation, degraded 
>> interactivity, fallback from HD to G.711...);
>>
>> - On the other side, it is recognized that implementing additional 
>> codecs in the browsers can generate additional costs.
>>
>> - In order to reach a compromise, we would like to add some text in 
>> the WG draft draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio providing incentives for the 
>> browser to use these three codecs: make them mandatory to implement 
>> when there is no cost impact on the browser (e.g. if codec already 
>> installed, paid by the device vendor...).
>>
>> Any opinion on that?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Xavier
>>
>> PS: I will be ready to present the slides on Thursday if time permits 
>> it.
>>
>> (c.f. http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-6.pdf
>> )
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com 
>> <mailto:ted.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Magnus and I discussed this this morning, and we encourage you to 
>> prepare something.  If the discussion of working group last call 
>> items runs short, we may be able to fit this in at that time or at 
>> the end of day one if its full agenda his finished.  This is not a 
>> commitment, however, so please try and get discussion on the list on 
>> the points from the draft you feel need resolution.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> Ted
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 2:31 PM, Espen Berger (espeberg) 
>> <espeberg@cisco.com <mailto:espeberg@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I would like to request agenda time for:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> draft-marjou-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-01
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The document  presents use-cases underlining why WebRTC needs
>> AMR-WB,  AMR
>>> and G.722 as additional relevant voice codecs to satisfactorily 
>>> ensure interoperability with existing systems.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A 10-minute time slot should be sufficient for presentation and
>> discussion.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -Espen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ rtcweb
>mailing list
>>> rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org> 
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>>
>> _______________________________________________ rtcweb
>mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org> 
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________ rtcweb
>mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>
>
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>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

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If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
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Thank you.

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