Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: Let's define the purpose of WebRTC)
Ravindran Parthasarathi <pravindran@sonusnet.com> Wed, 09 November 2011 02:50 UTC
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From: Ravindran Parthasarathi <pravindran@sonusnet.com>
To: Cameron Byrne <cb.list6@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: Let's define the purpose of WebRTC)
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Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 02:50:37 +0000
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Cc: "<,rtcweb@ietf.org>," <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: Let's define the purpose of WebRTC)
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Cameron, I guess that we are in the same w.r.t IETF privacy policy and it is main reason, I take back my comment #2. But, Please look into comment #1 for Enterprise WebRTC application wherein SRTP is not required to be mandated. > >> 1) Security could be in the lower layer itself (IPsec, VPN, private > >MPLS cloud). For Enterprise-only-WebRTC application (no federation& no > >interop), there is no need of security by specific application like > >WebRTC as it is ensured in the infrastructure. WebRTC security will be > >duplicated for these infrastructure and may leads double encryption > >unnecessarily. Thanks Partha From: Cameron Byrne [mailto:cb.list6@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 8:07 AM To: Ravindran Parthasarathi Cc: <,rtcweb@ietf.org>, Subject: Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: Let's define the purpose of WebRTC) On Nov 8, 2011 5:21 PM, "Ravindran Parthasarathi" <pravindran@sonusnet.com<mailto:pravindran@sonusnet.com>> wrote: > > Thanks to Harald/Cullen for pointing out RFC 2804. I take back my #2 comment based on RFC 2804 wiretapping policy. > > I wish to clarify why I gave this comment before closing on #2: > > It is the common practice in India to buy computer to talk/chat with the relatives who are outside India by using Skype/Gtalk/Yahoo (avoiding International subscriber dialing charges). Of course, Cell phone is more popular than Computer and cheap (~$100) Wi-Fi enabled (Android) Smartphones are available in market. WebRTC will bring the new innovative way of communicating using Smartphone (like free WebRTC session to street provisional store). Browser in Smartphone is the platform for making outgoing session towards provisional store. I really don't want these kind of WebRTC service are forbidden by Government laws unnecessarily due to security (SRTP) reasons. > > Getting into murky waters here. I believe the ietf values privacy and I would like srtp to be mandatory since I value privacy. If not supporting privacy is a requirement for your government, then perhaps webrtc is not for you. Cb > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Harald Alvestrand [mailto:harald@alvestrand.no<mailto:harald@alvestrand.no>] > >Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 3:58 AM > >To: Ravindran Parthasarathi > >Cc: Hadriel Kaplan; Eric Rescorla; <rtcweb@ietf.org<mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>> > >Subject: SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the > >purpose of WebRTC) > > > >Changing the subject again to mention SRTP.... > > > >On 11/08/2011 03:30 PM, Ravindran Parthasarathi wrote: > >> I agree with Hadriel that it is not required to mandate SRTP for > >WebRTC. My reasoning are as follows: > >> > >> 1) Security could be in the lower layer itself (IPsec, VPN, private > >MPLS cloud). For Enterprise-only-WebRTC application (no federation& no > >interop), there is no need of security by specific application like > >WebRTC as it is ensured in the infrastructure. WebRTC security will be > >duplicated for these infrastructure and may leads double encryption > >unnecessarily. > >This argument makes some sense. > >> > >> 2) Being in India, I'm interested in avoiding Government restriction > >on WebRTC proposal (Thanks to Tim for pointing this). I may not surprise > >to see that WebRTC mechanism is banned in India because intelligent > >agency struggles to break the key in each terrorist WebRTC site. > >(http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/235639/india_wants_to_int > >ercept_skype_google_communications.html) > >This argument is contrary to stated IETF policy (RFC 2804). > > > >I recommend the RFC for background reading. > >> > >> In case there is no use case to illustrate in RTCWeb draft, let us > >discuss in detail. > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org>] On > >Behalf > >>> Of Hadriel Kaplan > >>> Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 9:12 PM > >>> To: Eric Rescorla > >>> Cc:<rtcweb@ietf.org<mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>> > >>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC > >>> > >>> > >>> On 11/07/2011 02:50 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >>>> On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 7:20 PM, Hadriel > >Kaplan<HKaplan@acmepacket.com<mailto:HKaplan@acmepacket.com>> > >>> wrote: > >>>>> Who said "too slow"? There *is* an extra round-trip or two > >involved > >>> I presume, if we're talking DTLS-SRTP, but no I didn't mean that as a > >>> "hit". I just meant the extra computing cycles for SRTP being a > >"hit". > >>> For WebRTC-to-WebRTC I don't think that matters at all. For WebRTC- > >to- > >>> media-server it might, for a free game app or greeting card app that > >>> don't care about it to begin with, and which use plaintext HTTP to > >begin > >>> with. > >>>> Sorry, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. Performance > >>> measurements > >>>> of HTTP versus HTTPS in modern Web environments suggest that the > >>> additional > >>>> load for HTTPS is not significant. Do you have evidence that the > >>> situation is > >>>> different for SRTP versus RTP? > >>> Only from the DSP guys, and those would be hardware DSPs not > >softDSPs. > >>> It runs them anywhere from 10-25% overhead, they say, depending on > >the > >>> vendor and what else their DSPs are doing at the time. > >>> > >>> But ultimately even in software I assume it's all relative to what > >other > >>> work you're doing. If you have to render a video stream on a screen > >and > >>> encode camera input into a codec being sent out, then my guess is > >SRTP > >>> overhead is a tiny factor not worth talking about. If you're mixing > >>> multiple RTP streams as a conference server, then I assume doing SRTP > >>> for thousands of simultaneous audio RTP streams for multiple > >>> simultaneous conferences becomes noticeable. Or at least so they > >seem > >>> to claim - I don't know since I don't build a media server (hardware > >>> SBCs often offload SRTP onto dedicated hardware). One large software > >>> company even created their own proprietary packet format for SRTP > >that > >>> they claimed was done for improving performance/scalability, so I > >assume > >>> it has some impact they don't want their customers to incur. > >>> > >>> -hadriel > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> rtcweb mailing list > >>> rtcweb@ietf.org<mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org> > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > >> _______________________________________________ > >> rtcweb mailing list > >> rtcweb@ietf.org<mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > >> > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org<mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
- [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Cameron Byrne
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Neil Stratford
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC José Luis Millán
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC John Elwell
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Harald Alvestrand
- [rtcweb] SRTP - mandatory to implement vs mandato… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Wolfgang Beck
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Jonathan Lennox
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Wolfgang Beck
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Wolfgang Beck
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP - mandatory to implement vs man… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Randell Jesup
- [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: Let'… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] surveillance in RTCWEB (was wiretapp… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Cameron Byrne
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Cameron Byrne
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Avasarala, Ranjit
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Avasarala, Ranjit
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Ravindran, Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Neil Stratford
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Neil Stratford
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Ravindran, Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Ravindran, Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Ravindran, Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP - mandatory to implement vs man… Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP - mandatory to implement vs man… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Olle E. Johansson
- [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Let's … Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Ravindran, Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Kevin P. Fleming
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Ravindran, Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Miguel Casas-Sanchez
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Neil Stratford
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Neil Stratford
- [rtcweb] Traffic on the list (Re: Traffic should … Harald Alvestrand
- [rtcweb] Fwd: Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: L… Wolfgang Beck
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Neil Stratford
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Neil Stratford
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Neil Stratford
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Michael Thornburgh
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Matthew Kaufman
- [rtcweb] Media Synchronization (Re: Traffic shoul… Matthew Kaufman
- [rtcweb] DTMF (was Re: Traffic should be encrypte… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Roman Shpount
- [rtcweb] POTS lines to browser (was Re: Fwd: Traf… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] POTS lines to browser (was Re: Fwd: … Wolfgang Beck
- [rtcweb] Call Security (was Re: Let's define the … Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] POTS lines to browser (was Re: Fwd: … Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] POTS lines to browser (was Re: Fwd: … Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Media Synchronization (Re: Traffic s… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Victor Pascual Avila
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Cullen Jennings