Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate to be re-opened
Iñaki Baz Castillo <ibc@aliax.net> Wed, 19 June 2013 17:32 UTC
Return-Path: <ibc@aliax.net>
X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1084721F9E3B for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 10:32:20 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.656
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.656 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.022, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, NO_RELAYS=-0.001]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4QlDnzfsnRTH for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 10:32:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-qc0-x230.google.com (mail-qc0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c01::230]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40F6E21F9E2F for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 10:32:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-qc0-f176.google.com with SMTP id z10so3149718qcx.7 for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 10:32:17 -0700 (PDT)
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-gm-message-state; bh=EnXmAGivngRjMtqM60jPELKlN6RgQ4knq8eh4UPD1BQ=; b=P+eBjYY/OMLpTUFSZnB0eyIgHdwxfUpYjNkswo84CQ56iN4rKLRI5H57AjXGj6u8UY JuBP+zXtH5t5DPz+3JtBXgXfExPFWRMmU7b8I7DlcfdZ4v8NgB4hrXXLtPHnigs81af9 z/DYsvxUYggdCWhdm+Hd7RkPxvsbQzAhloyWhJO4VvIYyWuQk/bOOul1aPU/ffHWzizV mfktk0Gofo63XTFfb0qX2rqvOlp+vuOPeNeP6+/cBU6iM17yRSMF27bXb3w/KRzqqS1H jszoDICs9kW4zR+bFEDREGxnK/nI/G88xgfS/l5sRDaeCWYMRC1EAK49Uc6hpA3+flre EYvg==
X-Received: by 10.229.25.5 with SMTP id x5mr1492231qcb.35.1371663137547; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 10:32:17 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.49.67.65 with HTTP; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 10:31:57 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <CAJrXDUHojwYG7iykzP586H4KHnA9m4OymY+z6tZCTF+xPndP5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALiegfkajJPxWZTzjYssP91VW+StStLpxoxGCkjOLKDMUWc0rA@mail.gmail.com> <CA+9kkMDk2L3SBPC08WU_5RcL16-Wzv8Mocj3-Qzmxz2E24ERGg@mail.gmail.com> <51C0C1A0.9010107@nostrum.com> <CAJrXDUGqSvsosZJhcRR-kCwEX1g_wvPnSZPmmcNwggk+Z9WNCA@mail.gmail.com> <CABkgnnWfV=5xBaRqAddqUURThs9J4T4+0HK4Ux07VA51r5oC3Q@mail.gmail.com> <CAJrXDUFNGKvWHw-yqeApEdTeuqMNPTDxvdKZ2DuzANmcR2y2CQ@mail.gmail.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C3AE500@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <CAJrXDUHCkQSLab2UuY_vWP3Gr8uh+++c9mDq5f4sCpuaK5aeLQ@mail.gmail.com> <51C1B907.8060508@hookflash.com> <CAJrXDUG06jvPvhfNwZ6Puzxj7E4XxELG_fU=S7B_c=tnC9eoNQ@mail.gmail.com> <CALiegfnQ4uZVYv7kpHwpYu3SK4nmR4yWw1kxLppx-T71DMAOXA@mail.gmail.com> <CAJrXDUHojwYG7iykzP586H4KHnA9m4OymY+z6tZCTF+xPndP5A@mail.gmail.com>
From: Iñaki Baz Castillo <ibc@aliax.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 19:31:57 +0200
Message-ID: <CALiegfkiA0-jY8gM++57qBTPTeys-YXUMZGTRgfyuhqTbFZ9zQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQncEcXdvv1Cb3JV31oYMWngJ20kwq6qkxO+roNG7nDmPu301LcFrP0//Dc2cDgDruX82hGy
Cc: "rtcweb_ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate to be re-opened
X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list <rtcweb.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb>
List-Post: <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 17:32:20 -0000
Agreed with all you said, and thanks ;) 2013/6/19 Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>: > > > > On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 9:54 AM, Iñaki Baz Castillo <ibc@aliax.net> wrote: >> >> 2013/6/19 Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com> >> >> >> >> >> The summary of what I want/believe: >> >> 1) I want as close to raw access to RTP/ICE streams, media, sources, >> >> outputs, codecs as viable. Obviously doing the actual transmission, >> >> encoding/decoding from JS is not feasible (yet), nor is secure [ICE must >> >> occur for mutual agreement to exchange data between peers], but having >> >> controls for how these components are wired together is extremely feasible >> >> from JS and would allow immensely powerful apps to be produced from JS. >> > >> > >> > What would you like to do that you can't do via SDP right now? You said >> > this isn't just about working through SDP. But I don't see anything >> > concrete you can't do right now with sufficient SDP >> > parsing/building/munging/hackery. >> >> >> If the "solution" with the current API/model is "SDP >> parsing/building/munging/hackery" then let me strongly say that: >> >> *** I don't want SDP *** >> >> :) > > > It may be helpful to respond to your original request to the WG chairs with > something a little more clear, specific, concise, and actionable then your > original email. I know many people reading this thread will just think > "what's this? Oh, just more SDP ranting" and it will fall on deaf ears. > > Also, explaining your use case and specific pain points may be helpful. > >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > The WG may dislike and reject your proposal >> >> >> With all due respect, >> >> And which proposal will the WG accept then? > > > I don't know. Perhaps none of them. It's possible we'll be stuck with SDP > munging forever. > > But I think you'll maximize your chances of success by being clear with what > you need, propose digestible solutions, avoid being ranty, and not try to > blow it all up and start from scratch. But I could be wrong. Maybe there's > a better way. > > >> >> It's frustrating IMHO that >> we still have no pro-SDP arguments in this long thread and still must >> accept that the SDP model would be the chosen one. Does the silence >> strategy mean "SDP usage was already voted two years ago, ignore >> current complains"? That could be a good argument if during the last >> TWO years we had *something* really good and usable based on the SDP >> model, but we don't have that. Instead we have tons of drafts and >> alternatives to make SDP fulfil WebRTC requirements, and none of them >> is good. >> >> >> IMHO current complains are based on the *experience* of the people >> trying to make the SDP model work in WebRTC, including people that >> were in favour of SDP two years ago and now have changed their mind >> (like me). > > > It may help you to understand this from the other side's perspective. Many > people in the WG like SDP and want to use SDP for everything and don't want > to change SDP much, if at all. And when someone comes through ranting > about SDP, they don't find that persuasive. > > If there's new information gained in the last two years that might be > persuasive, present that. But try to do it in clear, concise, way that says > "here's what I'm trying to do", "here's my experience", "here's my pain", > "here's how I think we can fix it". That might be a lot more persuasive. > Then again, it might now; who knows? :) > > > > >>> Anyone who argues that they need/want that simple SDP media negotiation >>> API must understand that a lower level API would allow a wrapper API to >>> produce the same WebRTC API the have today but be built entirely from >>> JavaScript >> >> >> That depends on how low-level you go. If you go too low-level, it becomes >> infeasible to do things correctly and performantly in JavaScript. > > There are tons of bug in current WebRTC implementations. Yes, there > will be also bugs in future JS libraries dealing with WebRTC internals > (those we propose), but they can be potentially fixed without > requiring upgrading the browser, and without waiting for all the > browser vendors to fix/implement them. > > And with all due respect, I don't agree at all with the "JavaScript > performance issue" that worries you, but I think that it is not up to > me to prove that a problem does not exist ;) > > > > Best regards. > > > -- > Iñaki Baz Castillo > <ibc@aliax.net> > -- Iñaki Baz Castillo <ibc@aliax.net>
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Alexandre GOUAILLARD
- [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate to be… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Erik Lagerway
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Christer Holmberg
- [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or not… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Richard Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Parthasarathi R
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Bossiel thioriguel
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Bossiel thioriguel
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Bossiel thioriguel
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Bossiel thioriguel
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Bossiel thioriguel
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Martin Thomson