Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI
Mohammed Raad <mohammedsraad@raadtech.com> Tue, 05 November 2013 21:31 UTC
Return-Path: <mohammedsraad@raadtech.com>
X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DAFE11E80E3 for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 13:31:51 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.31
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.31 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_HTML_USL_OBFU=1.666]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j8O7vycE3IYm for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 13:31:47 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-wi0-f170.google.com (mail-wi0-f170.google.com [209.85.212.170]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53FD711E8103 for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 13:31:41 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-wi0-f170.google.com with SMTP id ex4so3974000wid.5 for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 13:31:41 -0800 (PST)
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=Uc8K6MZ+debrHMFFyN1QVZ9GZP7fgHO6c2ZcoNhf3Gk=; b=UXokOgTDr+zq98YK8zcOHEAN2lYHI4NQ21XHPjRJBZAtZeNi+JicbXuCJazRZxqD/h PTVpKZgmvsseIgCRtI7Y7BSRqRiO8RQ/dAts3os1OI70A+GSuSpn1bfhl4OiJT4XfyjA oQ/mrbnV0LChqpTSF4owdLQR+pQkCnvPecLf9G7QFlXLO1eP/7uzK5dBrDoVWEcW4xXS zsYetXIsvhe5Gp9VqC5yeX1p1TYDRGSATQaYXly6vwJ+Cn/NNInLFaltjZw7q2c5/Xex jApA7NzgDEHiOQIwIXI+KPcTDrXfvAxE24zgFf4ZXP8G6wH/KgrQ0WLc+oiFD9pitJdo g83Q==
X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkH1+iY7VvR6aBhuLfVxypYKWTymTpONBur3tAhuOUrKzgRK2t8ApZ9cW0vwE973Fe4hKA2
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.180.76.196 with SMTP id m4mr379672wiw.59.1383687101058; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 13:31:41 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.194.179.166 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 13:31:40 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.194.179.166 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 13:31:40 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <5279339B.9040506@bbs.darktech.org>
References: <CE9E91B2.1BEAA%mzanaty@cisco.com> <8EB7C7F2-105D-4CFB-AC06-F8BB331A4736@cisco.com> <5279339B.9040506@bbs.darktech.org>
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2013 08:31:40 +1100
Message-ID: <CA+E6M0mMs3WhwVtx5fgkAz_=u7U5cSd6ns+B9kY3UmboGkz2CA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Mohammed Raad <mohammedsraad@raadtech.com>
To: rtcweb@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f46d043c7f0623ab9404ea74c22c"
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI
X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list <rtcweb.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb>
List-Post: <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 21:31:51 -0000
Hi, Given the lack of agreement on a single MTI, for business reasons primarily, and given that the debate is really focused on two candidates, I suggest that a transcoding function between these two codecs be defined at the service provider level. I suggest that the transcoding function only include the VP8 and AVC CBP to make the development and use of this part of the service feasible. Having such a function would allow different organizations to make their own decision about what works for them. I sense that different experts have become entrenched in their respective positions with very little freedom to make a change, for multiple reasons. I think it should be clear that having transcoding at the service level would be a reasonable compromise. Note that no end device would be required to perform the transcoding, this would be done at the service provider level. BR, Mohammed On Nov 6, 2013 5:07 AM, "cowwoc" <cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org> wrote: > Cullen, > > In light of the fact that vendors are highly polarized on this topic, > I'd like to suggest the following voting order: > > 1. Should *both* H.264 and VP8 be MTI? > > If there is a consensus for yes, stop here. > > 2a. Should *only* H.264 be MTI? or, > 2b. Should *only* VP8 be MTI? > > If there is a consensus for either one, stop here. > > 3a. Should *only* H.261 be MTI? or, > 3b. Should no codec be MTI? (this implies transcoding) > > Given the final choice (H.261 or no MTI) I suspect many vendors would > choose H.261 and upgrade to H.264/VP8 at runtime. No one really wants to go > back to the days of transcoding. > > Gili > > On 05/11/2013 12:44 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote: > >> Right now there is no proposal on the table for the MTI to be both VP8 >> and H.264 and the deadline was back in October so it's not a topic the >> chairs feel ready to discuss in the thursday meeting. >> >> I will note that in the past when this idea was discussed, the people who >> were concerned about IPR for either codec pointed out that this could only >> increased, not decreased, the IPR concerns. >> >> The chairs are more concerned about neither choice being acceptable. If >> we found out that both are acceptable, that will be a good situation and we >> will find a reasonable way to proceed from there that is acceptable to the >> WG. Alternative process is the last resort. From a chair point of view, it >> really better if people actually honestly answer the question in a >> consensus call instead gaming the system. >> >> Cullen - Just one of the chairs and I hope my co-chairs add more but they >> are both in meetings right now >> >> >> On Nov 5, 2013, at 9:27 AM, "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" <mzanaty@cisco.com> >> wrote: >> >> This is an important point the chairs must clarify. If there is strong >>> support for both questions, will the chair interpret that as support for >>> 2 >>> MTIs, or declare no consensus, forcing us into alternative processes? I >>> support both as MTI. But if raising my hand twice increases the >>> likelihood >>> of an alternative process, I will only support one (despite objecting to >>> being forced to support only one). >>> >>> Mo >>> >>> >>> On 11/5/13, 9:46 AM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> On 5 November 2013 06:18, Hutton, Andrew <andrew.hutton@unify.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> How would we conclude that the community would like both to be made MTI? >>>> >>> >>> If I were to pretend that I am a process wonk, I might say something >>> like: if the objections to both questions are weak AND if the >>> objectors are unable to find reasons that pass muster. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rtcweb mailing list >>> rtcweb@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Leon Geyser
- [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Leon Geyser
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Wolfgang Beck
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Mohammed Raad
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI bryandonnovan
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Mohammed Raad
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Mohammed Raad
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Mohammed Raad
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Making both VP8 and H264 MTI Martin J. Dürst