Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision
Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> Thu, 19 December 2013 16:12 UTC
Return-Path: <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9B141ACCEC for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 08:12:38 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -3.851
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FIc9r1xD2KHJ for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 08:12:36 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mailgw1.ericsson.se (mailgw1.ericsson.se [193.180.251.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 413771AC4A6 for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 08:12:35 -0800 (PST)
X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-b7f1c8e000005ceb-44-52b31af0673e
Received: from ESESSHC004.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw1.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 84.83.23787.0FA13B25; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 17:12:32 +0100 (CET)
Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.2.347.0; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 17:12:15 +0100
Message-ID: <52B31AF0.60107@ericsson.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 17:12:32 +0100
From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>, rai-ads@tools.ietf.org, tsv-ads@tools.ietf.org
References: <5283DF61.9060807@alvestrand.no>
In-Reply-To: <5283DF61.9060807@alvestrand.no>
X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFupnluLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGfG3VveD1OYgg+frLCyO9XWxWezdPo/R Yu2/dnaLafM+MjqweFyZcIXVY8mSn0weXy5/ZgtgjuKySUnNySxLLdK3S+DKOLb0E2vBM52K e8fnMDYwvlfuYuTgkBAwkXi+Iq6LkRPIFJO4cG89G4gtJHCIUeLKH50uRi4gezmjxPa2T4wg 9bwCmhL7niWBmCwCqhI/HueDlLMJWEjc/NEI1ioqECxxa9oDdhCbV0BQ4uTMJywgtohAO6PE 7d5MEFtYwEriwa2TUKt0JHY9eg5mcwroSsz58oIR4jJxiZ7GIJAws4CexJSrLYwQtrxE89bZ zBCt2hINTR2sExgFZyHZNgtJyywkLQsYmVcxsucmZuaklxtuYgQG6sEtv3V3MJ46J3KIUZqD RUmc98Nb5yAhgfTEktTs1NSC1KL4otKc1OJDjEwcnFINjPUcL3WtL++ueOPjrzPtTb8Z28Q+ m6CIkvPPKsRVm/f8efr15LffQbH1zx+Yvl0/t17acYqn+8bXnAV7vFI/lM5n21ioMldkg/PT ty4L/dbdCxH2UEs6vbD2paTmhs6mPc/c/znvLvsa++Bc+OLaqeu/ilifW7Di2JaiOfv6D3fM ilOqf5PkY6vEUpyRaKjFXFScCADUC1rVIgIAAA==
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision
X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list <rtcweb.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/>
List-Post: <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 16:12:39 -0000
Harald, WG, We apologize for the failure to inform and keep the WG aware of the discussion and TSV ADs request to move draft-ietf-rtcweb-qos with it's then content to TSVWG. A request chairs and authors accepted in the end more than a year ago. This is clearly a failure by us chairs to ensure sufficient transparency and a venue to timely protest that decision. After reviewing this with TSVWG chairs, the non-recused RTCWEB chairs (Magnus and Ted) do believe that the DSCP aspects require TSVWG action, and that draft-dhesikan belongs there as a result. If there are aspects of the QoS approach that are outside draft-dsheikan's current remit, those might still belong in RTCWEB. We might also be able to pull some pieces out of draft-dhesikan for local progress, but we can't take the full document as it stands. Thus nothing prevents the WG from creating a new QoS related WG document assuming a different scope than the previous document. If any WG participants see a need for such a document they are welcome to submit an individual document as a proposal for such a WG document. We note you protesting the lack of progress of draft-dhesikan in TSVWG, and state that as one reason why this document should be in RTCWEB WG. After reviewing mailing list discussion, meeting minutes and talking to the TSVWG chairs, it appears that the main reason it hasn't been making more progress have been the lack of an draft update to resolve the issue raised in the Berlin TSVWG meeting. We have good hopes that the document can make fair progress in TSVWG assuming author and RTCWEB participants make timely contributions to the document. Harald, does this provide a clear enough way forward or, do you wish to continue your appeal? Best Regards Magnus Westerlund Ted Hardie On 2013-11-13 21:21, Harald Alvestrand wrote: > This mail concerns both administrative and technical issues, which is > why it is explicitly copied to the ADs of RAI and TSV. I hope I have > managed to keep them separate in the message. > > Magnus said in an email yesterday, concerning draft-ietf-rtcweb-qos: > >> Okay, we might not have been public enough on this. It was requested by >> the Transport ADs quite some time ago that doing the QoS document in our >> WG was not appropriate and requested us to direct the document to TSVWG. >> Which was done, and where it hasn't made progress. >> >> You might have noted that James Polk did comment in the milestone part >> in the monday session of IETF88 about our QoS milestone should be killed. > I want to protest this - both practically and formally. > > To get the formal stuff out of the way first: > > Changing the deliverables of the working group *without telling the > working group* is totally inappropriate in an open, consensus-driven > process. > Changing the deliverables of the working group *without telling the > working group why* and *without allowing those reasons to be debated* is > totally inappropriate in an open, consensus-driven process. > > I protest against this action. > > ACTION REQUEST 1: I request that this decision be declared null and > void, and that the relevant ADs send out a message to RTCWEB (and TSVWG > if appropriate) *PROPOSING* such an action, and giving a reasonable > timeline for when they will make a decision based on mailing list feedback. > > In practice: > > The draft as it existed before its untimely demise consisted of two things: > > - A description of how QoS mechanisms could be useful in the RTCWEB use case > - A description of existing mechanisms that could be appropriate for the > RTCWEB use case > > The first one is clearly something that needs RTCWEB consensus. It seems > to have no need for, nor likelyhood of gathering interest enough for, a > TSVWG consensus. > > There could be some argument that the second part needs TSVWG consensus, > especially if it was redefining any mechanisms, or it was making choices > between mechanisms where TSVWG had strong opinions about which > mechanisms should be chosen, but had not chosen to document that in any > document on which IETF consensus had been declared (that is to say, > existing RFCs). > > My archive shows 36 messages where the title refers to this draft. It > shows no messages declaring that feedback has been incorporated and > calling for new review - something that is usually necessary to get a WG > consensus on any document. The debate hasn't been conclusive, but then, > it hasn't been pushed hard either. > > The people who know how RTCWEB works are in this working group. Some of > them may be in TSV, but I think the locus of knowledge for saying what > QoS mechanisms are appropriate for RTCWEB are here, not in TSV. > > This results in my second request. > > ACTION REQUEST 2: I request that the chairs declare that based on the > debate about the QoS functionality so far, the document should be > resurrected, and will continue to be worked on in the RTCWEB working > group, bringing in advice from TSVWG as required to make sure the > descriptions of underlying mechanisms, and the choice of such > mechanisms, is correct and appropriate. > > > > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------
- [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision James Polk
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Gonzalo Camarillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Wesley Eddy
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Gonzalo Camarillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision James Polk
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Wesley Eddy
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Subha Dhesikan (sdhesika)
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Eggert, Lars
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Eggert, Lars
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Dave Crocker
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Dave Crocker
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Wesley Eddy
- [rtcweb] RTCWEB milestones (was: Protesting the Q… SM
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWEB milestones Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Markus.Isomaki