Re: [rtcweb] [Ice] [MMUSIC] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238

Christer Holmberg <> Fri, 07 September 2018 18:28 UTC

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From: Christer Holmberg <>
To: Cullen Jennings <>, Adam Roach <>
CC: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion <>, "" <>, "" <>, "" <>, RTCWeb IETF <>
Thread-Topic: [Ice] [MMUSIC] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238
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Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 18:28:54 +0000
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] [Ice] [MMUSIC] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238
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>That’s a very useful graph but when I look at the what is actually used in the purple links, >most of them seem they could trivial work with any version of ICE with the exception of the >few places trickle is used and need the explicit stuff around how to deal with trickle. 

Trickle is based on "Emil's table", which is one of the major things we did in 8445. So, if you implement that for trickle, you've implemented most of 8445 :)

The other major thing we did in 8445 was the removal of aggressive nomination, which many seem to have done in their current implementations anyway...



> On Sep 6, 2018, at 6:54 PM, Adam Roach <> wrote:
> On 9/6/18 3:24 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote:
>> I would propose that instead of the parts of specs that use the trickle mechanism purely reference that part of the new ICE spec that defines the syntax and say to transfer trickle candidates.
> Unfortunately, it's not quite so simple. The mismatch with trickle-ice is only the most obvious problem. In practice, there are a few dozen places where unpublished documents in the cluster refer directly to one version of ICE, and indirectly to another, or indirectly to both.
> To help wrap our collective minds around this issue, I've put together a dependency graph that shows which Cluster 238 documents refer to which version of ICE. The red lines indicate references (directly or indirectly) to RFC 5245, while the purple lines indicate references to RFC 8445. The thickness of the line indicates how many hops away from ICE the reference is. Dotted lines are informative references.
> To put a finer point on this, it took me a couple of hours to pare this graph down to something that was small enough to look at and actually understand -- there are actually twice as many documents involved in this mess, but including them makes the situation too confusing to even start to get a grip on.
> Everywhere you see a purple document with a red arrow or vice-versa is a place we need to figure out how to handle this mismatch. You can push the boundaries around, but the count of mismatches is pretty much the same no matter how you do that. On a first order estimation, this is days -- or, more likely, weeks of work. And I'm talking about person-hours, not calendar time. If you can do this, or find someone to step up and do it, then your proposal would be a viable alternative to the one that the ART ADs have proposed. Short of that, I'm not sure how we can do what you want.
> /a
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