Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal
Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> Mon, 10 November 2014 20:06 UTC
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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 12:06:25 -0800
From: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal
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FWIW, I'm firmly with Tim on the proposal: I don't like to declare that a royalty-bearing technology is mandatory to implement in an IETF standard, but given the realities of the situation, I think it is better to adopt this proposal than continuing to leave the MTI decision in flux. About the language on "reconsideration": Given all the legal issues involved, it would in my opinion be foolhardy to adopt a prescriptive, mechanical trigger for a reclassification - but I would be unhappy about abandoning all hope that the situation could improve - if we are in a situation (years from now?) where it's obvious that we have a royalty free, safely deployable codec available, it would be a strange thing not to say "the way is clear, let's pick the freely available alternative!" I do expect that, if the proposal is adopted, browsers will support both codecs for the foreseeable future (and probably longer than that - "the foreseeable future" tends to be short these days). Adam's "reconsideration" proposal applies only to the class of non-browser things that implement RTCWEB (aka "devices"). Harald On 11/10/2014 11:14 AM, Stephan Wenger wrote: > Hi, > I like and support the spirit of this proposal, but have one issue > with the formulation below, and would like to see it clarified. > Stephan > > > From: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com <mailto:adam@nostrum.com>> > Date: Sunday, November 9, 2014 at 18:08 > To: "rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>" <rtcweb@ietf.org > <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>> > Subject: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal > > […] > If compelling evidence arises that one of the codecs is > available for use on a royalty-free basis, such as all IPR > declarations known for the codec being of (IETF) Royalty-Free > or (ISO) type 1, the IETF will change this normative statement > to indicate that only that codec is required. > […] > > First: “the IETF WILL CHANGE”: I don’t think that such forward > looking, absolute statements are appropriate. And probably also not > correct. Some of the objections here are not over royalties, but over > ecosystem dominance; never mind the money. Whether or not the IETF > changes its opinion will at least partly be based based on the power > distribution of players subscribing to ecosystem agendas at the time > the situation changes. > > Second, “all IPR declarations known for the codec being of (IETF) > Royalty-Free or (ISO) type 1” is IMO not compelling evidence for a > royalty free codec; for many reasons that have been spelled out > before. Similarly, type 2 RAND statements are not evidence that > royalties are necessarily being paid. > To me, evidence for a (practically) RF H.264 codec would be an MPEG-LA > pool rightholder decision not to require the payment of royalties. > For VP[8,9], the licensing arrangement google has made got a long way > to convince me, but what would be needed in addition is to overcome > known objections by players, however expressed. (Note that legal > departments will typically be very reluctant to submit type 1 > statements, whereas the business groups may be more easily able to > communicate a company decision for zero royalty.) For newer codecs, > what would be needed is both very wide participation (including all > the key players in both IETF and VCEG/MPEG) and RF declarations in > whatever organization doing the work. Clearly, at this point, none of > H.265, VP10, or Daala fulfill those conditions. > > Thanks, > Stephan > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb -- Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.
- [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Lorenzo Miniero
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Jonathan Rosenberg
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal tim panton
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Cavigioli, Chris
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Cavigioli, Chris
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Mary Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Suhas Nandakumar
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Tim Lindsey
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Alexandre GOUAILLARD
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Victor Pascual Avila
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal tim panton
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal stephane.proust
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Gaelle Martin-Cocher
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Shijun Sun
- Re: [rtcweb] MTI Video Codec: a novel proposal Florian Weimer