Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and requirements
"Timothy B. Terriberry" <tterriberry@mozilla.com> Tue, 28 June 2011 17:06 UTC
Return-Path: <prvs=15388d6cb=tterriberry@mozilla.com>
X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B0F211E80C3 for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2011 10:06:45 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.992
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.992 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MISSING_HEADERS=1.292, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UhuVT2CUyeaZ for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2011 10:06:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mxip3i.isis.unc.edu (mxip3i.isis.unc.edu [152.2.2.195]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C781F11E808C for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2011 10:06:44 -0700 (PDT)
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqEEALcICk6sGgRS/2dsb2JhbABShEmiBYFpiHevN5EfgSuDeYEMBIc0jzwOi1M
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.65,437,1304308800"; d="scan'208";a="103769286"
Received: from mr1a.isis.unc.edu (HELO smtp.unc.edu) ([172.26.4.82]) by mxip3o.isis.unc.edu with ESMTP; 28 Jun 2011 13:06:43 -0400
X-UNC-Auth-As: tterribe
X-UNC-Auth-IP: 69.181.137.38
Received: from [172.17.0.5] (c-69-181-137-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [69.181.137.38]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp.unc.edu (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p5SH6bpE004482 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2011 13:06:40 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <4E0A0A1C.6060905@mozilla.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 10:06:36 -0700
From: "Timothy B. Terriberry" <tterriberry@mozilla.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.1.15) Gecko/20101120 Gentoo/2.0.10 SeaMonkey/2.0.10
MIME-Version: 1.0
CC: rtcweb@ietf.org
References: <blu152-w313AC2093422E0C005708093570@phx.gbl> <4E090781.20308@jitsi.org> <4E09CE8F.8000508@alcatel-lucent.com> <4E09D701.4030400@jitsi.org> <4E0A0147.2030402@alcatel-lucent.com>
In-Reply-To: <4E0A0147.2030402@alcatel-lucent.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and requirements
X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list <rtcweb.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb>
List-Post: <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 17:06:45 -0000
> No, most likely it was I who missed something... Yes, I remember the > timer questions, but I thought Jonathan answered this. IIRC, Harald suggested that the best way to decide if this was actually feasible was with "running code", at least at the proof-of-concept level. This seemed like a very good idea to me. The resolution of JS timers is not the only issue. One also has to deal with other pages with long-running JS scripts that prevent your timers from firing. Various advertisers do this on a semi-regular basis, though I don't have good numbers on how frequent this is, or how much of a problem it would really pose. Running code could be used to actually measure the connectivity success rate, for those that want to know. I don't think the compatibility concerns have been addressed, either. With ICE in the browser, you have four or five implementations total that have to interoperate, vs. (potentially) one for each website. Updates to browsers can be deployed, at scale, to hundreds of millions of users in the span of a few weeks (at least with Firefox and Chrome, Safari and IE also have well-established short-term update mechanisms, though they're usually for security issues rather than new features), vs. trying to get each and every website to update their JS library. An individual website may be able to deploy updates more quickly than the browser vendors, but interoperability isn't about the individual. And now there are the security concerns with sending datagrams after trying to short-cut the ICE process. I don't know if mandating STUN requests before sending data to a remote peer is sufficient to address these, but clearly some others see a potential problem. Personally, I think having p2p datagram support is a much more important feature to end users than being able to change the connection handshake protocol in JS. Everything above is an argument I've heard someone else raise at some point. I haven't heard a lot of good responses to these arguments.
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Jonathan Rosenberg
- [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and req… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Christopher Blizzard
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Manuel Simoni
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Manuel Simoni
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Christopher Blizzard
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Non-media data service consensus and… Randell Jesup
- [rtcweb] Consensus Call on Non-media data service… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus Call on Non-media data ser… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus Call on Non-media data ser… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus Call on Non-media data ser… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus Call on Non-media data ser… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus Call on Non-media data ser… Dzonatas Sol
- [rtcweb] realiable data service Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Serge Lachapelle
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Serge Lachapelle
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Emil Ivov
- [rtcweb] PseudoTCP implementation (Re: realiable … Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] PseudoTCP implementation (Re: realia… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Serge Lachapelle
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Serge Lachapelle
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] realiable data service Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [rtcweb] PseudoTCP implementation (Re: realia… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] PseudoTCP implementation (Re: realia… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] PseudoTCP implementation (Re: realia… Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] PseudoTCP implementation (Re: realia… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] PseudoTCP implementation (Re: realia… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] PseudoTCP implementation (Re: realia… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] PseudoTCP implementation (Re: realia… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] PseudoTCP implementation (Re: realia… Justin Uberti