Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC
Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org> Mon, 07 November 2011 15:36 UTC
Return-Path: <randell-ietf@jesup.org>
X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2175521F85A4 for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 7 Nov 2011 07:36:47 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.554
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.554 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.045, BAYES_00=-2.599]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KvQ2VeVT1zMA for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 7 Nov 2011 07:36:46 -0800 (PST)
Received: from r2-chicago.webserversystems.com (r2-chicago.webserversystems.com [173.236.101.58]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79C1A21F8512 for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Mon, 7 Nov 2011 07:36:46 -0800 (PST)
Received: from pool-173-49-135-74.phlapa.fios.verizon.net ([173.49.135.74] helo=[192.168.1.12]) by r2-chicago.webserversystems.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <randell-ietf@jesup.org>) id 1RNRFd-0000vP-K4 for rtcweb@ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2011 09:36:45 -0600
Message-ID: <4EB7FAED.4070104@jesup.org>
Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 10:36:13 -0500
From: Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110929 Thunderbird/7.0.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: rtcweb@ietf.org
References: <CALiegfkVNVAs_MyU_-4koA4zRwSn1-FwLjY9g_oZVkhi9rSK5Q@mail.gmail.com> <CAD5OKxt=k_Mon_GMs1w-bGMgpk12h6ZQ=FkoRVsTp4271iMSLA@mail.gmail.com> <CABcZeBNMTgwH-R_jd-AiEJ8tELTeFMNm-bAJohRg2RxD5e+kZQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAD6AjGRBmrAqB3CEWxtaXnryPA5App13S2jJPAt+7HwWZsQFzA@mail.gmail.com> <CABcZeBNtoizuRymVMxF4CdiLu1Nju63C0xkWJHjoarpxeLXjyA@mail.gmail.com> <CALiegfk=oJJ20GhKQBKA7aspHhUyQ-s+DR-qSi4XV455Nj718w@mail.gmail.com> <9C4C8AE2-4AFF-4553-9D19-556F12AC066E@phonefromhere.com> <9B907E0E-7FE7-4302-BDFA-CEEC12734B8C@edvina.net> <7BF02133-2A7E-48ED-982F-90B7868F9FB9@phonefromhere.com> <4EB74D06.8000006@jesup.org> <CAAJUQMihjTRgpO8hjgiYz5iLbWTncdXFO8nnRE9VDRND36-b2w@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAAJUQMihjTRgpO8hjgiYz5iLbWTncdXFO8nnRE9VDRND36-b2w@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report
X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - r2-chicago.webserversystems.com
X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org
X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12]
X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jesup.org
X-Source:
X-Source-Args:
X-Source-Dir:
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC
X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list <rtcweb.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb>
List-Post: <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 15:36:47 -0000
On 11/7/2011 7:20 AM, Wolfgang Beck wrote: > On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 4:14 AM, Randell Jesup<randell-ietf@jesup.org> wrote: >> On 11/6/2011 9:01 AM, Tim Panton wrote: >>> [..] >> >> For example, you mention forking and glare. Well, I've given very >> non-interop cases of where forking would be useful: contacting someone who >> has 2 desktops, a notebook, a tablet, and a phone all logged into the >> service, or some of the game scenarios, or a very non-standard-SIP-like mesh >> conference using forked invites. > Do you really need forking to achieve this? Couldn't you just return > references to those devices back to the caller > which can then decide how to call them? A redirect server instead of a > forking proxy? So I assume instead of letting the server fork, you'd have the server return "you should really call these N specific sub-addresses", and have the client redo the call with those sub-addresses (which BTW complicates the security and camera/mic access model, I think). It would then generate N parallel OFFERs via the server. This generates several unwanted side-effects: a) possible more complex security/user-agreement issues b) at a minimum an extra round-trip for call setup if "forking" is needed, before any client is informed there's an incoming call. In practice this may be much worse, since N parallel OFFERs will mean N ICE candidate harvestings in order to send out the OFFERs. c) when one candidate is ACCEPTed, the client will be responsible for cancelling the OFFERs to the others (assuming it only wanted one conversation), or more ongoing resources used, if it wants to leave the option for other 'forked' destinations to answer. d) higher bandwidth and resource use, both by the client and the server. While this may seem minor, the extra energy used (and extra network traffic for ICE, cancelling OFFERs, etc) could actually matter for mobile clients, which is where all of this will likely be moving to. There's also a timing hole opened (small) where the list returned may no longer be correct when the multiple OFFERs are sent - I think this, while real, doesn't really matter in practice. > Forking is a good example how interop -- with SIP or with different > RTCWEB apps -- complicates things significantly. I think letting the server fork it (parallel forking) actually is less complication in practice. >> And glare: Cullen's classic example of glare is two people talking, browser to browser, and one saying "lets add >> video", and both turning it on. No interop or SIP required for that to >> cause glare. > If your service requires this function, yes, you're right. It has > nothing to do with SIP and interop. > > The question is: does a JS client have to deal with glare handling if > it can exclude conflicting offers by other means. My 'click here to > speak to a human' application might never need this at all. If there's any way both the client and the person at the other end could cause a re-OFFER (say if your local IP address changes??), then glare is always possible. Best to simply design for it so the application doesn't need to, especially since most app developers will have no concept what glare is or why it might happen. -- Randell Jesup randell-ietf@jesup.org
- [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Cameron Byrne
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Neil Stratford
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC José Luis Millán
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC John Elwell
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Harald Alvestrand
- [rtcweb] SRTP - mandatory to implement vs mandato… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Wolfgang Beck
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Jonathan Lennox
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Wolfgang Beck
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Wolfgang Beck
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP - mandatory to implement vs man… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Randell Jesup
- [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: Let'… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] surveillance in RTCWEB (was wiretapp… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Cameron Byrne
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Cameron Byrne
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Avasarala, Ranjit
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Avasarala, Ranjit
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Ravindran, Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Neil Stratford
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Neil Stratford
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Ravindran, Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Ravindran, Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Ravindran, Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP - mandatory to implement vs man… Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP - mandatory to implement vs man… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Olle E. Johansson
- [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Let's … Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Ravindran, Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Kevin P. Fleming
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Ravindran, Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Miguel Casas-Sanchez
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Neil Stratford
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Neil Stratford
- [rtcweb] Traffic on the list (Re: Traffic should … Harald Alvestrand
- [rtcweb] Fwd: Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: L… Wolfgang Beck
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Neil Stratford
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Neil Stratford
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Neil Stratford
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Michael Thornburgh
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Matthew Kaufman
- [rtcweb] Media Synchronization (Re: Traffic shoul… Matthew Kaufman
- [rtcweb] DTMF (was Re: Traffic should be encrypte… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Roman Shpount
- [rtcweb] POTS lines to browser (was Re: Fwd: Traf… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] POTS lines to browser (was Re: Fwd: … Wolfgang Beck
- [rtcweb] Call Security (was Re: Let's define the … Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] POTS lines to browser (was Re: Fwd: … Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] POTS lines to browser (was Re: Fwd: … Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Media Synchronization (Re: Traffic s… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Victor Pascual Avila
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Cullen Jennings