Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecting Recommended Audio Codecs
Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com> Mon, 24 December 2012 10:26 UTC
Return-Path: <tim@phonefromhere.com>
X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B645D21F884F for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 24 Dec 2012 02:26:01 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.599
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k3FUZYiOpELB for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 24 Dec 2012 02:26:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: from smtp003.apm-internet.net (smtp003.apm-internet.net [85.119.248.52]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1988D21F8809 for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Mon, 24 Dec 2012 02:25:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: (qmail 13941 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2012 10:25:55 -0000
X-AV-Scan: clean
Received: from unknown (HELO zimbra003.verygoodemail.com) (85.119.248.218) by smtp003.apm-internet.net with SMTP; 24 Dec 2012 10:25:55 -0000
Received: from [192.67.4.33] (unknown [192.67.4.33]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F3DA818A0AEE for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Mon, 24 Dec 2012 10:25:54 +0000 (GMT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283)
From: Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com>
In-Reply-To: <50D6C2C9.80004@omnitor.se>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 10:25:46 +0000
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <8A68C6DA-B603-4450-A4B8-A72E99996AA5@phonefromhere.com>
References: <BLU404-EAS275E7E8B948E07ECF8847C193340@phx.gbl> <50D6C2C9.80004@omnitor.se>
To: rtcweb@ietf.org
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283)
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecting Recommended Audio Codecs
X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list <rtcweb.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb>
List-Post: <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 10:26:01 -0000
Looks like I'll be a lone voice again. I'm against any recommendation of use of g722 in webRTC If implementers want to provide it that's fine but it should not be in the standard. Even if it is available it always be at a lower preference than Opus g722 has several disadvantages over Opus and no real advantages. 1) The spec for g722 contains a historical error, so it's sample rate gets declared as 8khz even though it is actually 16khz - this means that the rtp/audio processing code is littered with if( codec == CODEC_G722) {} else {} clauses to try and implement this mistake. I've seen g722 mis-implemented more often than any other codec. 2) g722 is a fixed rate codec - it uses 64kbits/sec irrespective of what is available - it won't play nice with any congestion management that is specified with webRTC 3) g722 sounds ok (despite using 14 or the available 16 bits) - provided there is no packet loss - it has no built in FEC or PLC modes, so falls apart at quite low loss levels (especially compared to opus). 4) if we mandate g722 then we need to make some methods in the constraints API to ensure that 2 browser endpoints that say they want wideband don't get g722 when they could both be doing opus in full CELT mode for the same bandwidth. The often stated advantage is that there are many existing g722 endpoints out there. This is irrelevant - there is only 1 platform I know of that implements ICE+DTLS-SRTP and g722 but not opus (asterisk for the curious and there's an opus patch available). Tim.
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Burger Eric
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Emil Ivov
- [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecting R… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Richard Shockey
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… James Rafferty
- [rtcweb] 答复: Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… 邓灵莉/Lingli Deng
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Richard Shockey
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Eric Burger
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Eric Burger
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Ken Fischer
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Steve Sokol
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Koen Vos
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… stephane.proust
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… stephane.proust
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Paul Coverdale
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Paul Coverdale
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Shida Schubert
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… R.Jesske
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Bernard Aboba
- [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call for C… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Flynn, Gerry J
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Burger Eric
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Roy, Radhika R CIV USARMY (US)
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Roy, Radhika R CIV USARMY (US)
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Burger Eric
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich)
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Roy, Radhika R CIV USARMY (US)
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Cameron Byrne
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Xavier Marjou
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… stephane.proust
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… stephane.proust
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Cameron Byrne
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… stephane.proust
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Mark Rejhon
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Mark Rejhon
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Steve Sokol
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Steve Sokol
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Eric Burger
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Burger Eric
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Call for Consensus Regarding Selecti… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] Consensus vs. Voting (was Re: Call f… Jean-Marc Valin