Re: [rtcweb] No Plan
Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu> Mon, 03 June 2013 20:45 UTC
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Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2013 16:37:30 -0400
From: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>
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To: Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org>
References: <51A65017.4090502@jitsi.org> <51A65DB8.9060702@alum.mit.edu> <51A880A7.7010908@jitsi.org> <51A8F5D8.8070602@alum.mit.edu> <51A98934.3000103@jitsi.org>
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Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] No Plan
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On 6/1/13 1:40 AM, Emil Ivov wrote: > > > On 31.05.13, 22:11, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >> On 5/31/13 6:51 AM, Emil Ivov wrote: >>> Hey Paul, >>> >>> On 29.05.13, 22:57, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >>>> Emil, >>>> >>>> I'm going to reserve judgment on this pending further discussion. >>>> I think this *might* work for CLUE, but I want to be certain. >>> >>> Sure! >>> >>>> I'm concerned with decomposed endpoints that can't manage all the >>>> streams on the same address/port. They will need multiple independent >>>> m-lines and/or bundle groups. >>> >>> This is obviously open for debate but the general idea of No Plan is >>> that: Offer/Answer is used for configuring media and RTP stacks and >>> additional signalling is not the browser's concern. >>> >>> Having extra m= lines, particularly when using BUNDLE, is in many ways >>> just extra signalling. >> >> You may be able to argue that adding extra m-lines into an existing >> bundle is "just extra signaling". But introducing an additional 5-tuple >> is more substantial. It requires configuring a new RTP stack and media. > > Indeed, this would require BUNDLE to work. I don't understand what that means - what point you are trying to make. You seem to have some criterion for what requires sdp and what does not. And AFAIK you are already assuming bundle works - you are simply using it less. As best I can tell, you acknowledge that you need SDP to: - negotiate a 5-tuple over which media will flow - specify which types of media can be carried and the codec info they may use. I'm just pointing out that for decomposed endpoints one 5-tuple may not be enough. And the need for this might not be known a priori. One side may be ready to add another stream for some purpose, and be willing/able to use private signaling to negotiate that. But the other side may not be able to handle that stream on the same 5-tuple. That in turn may result in a need to negotiate SDP changes to establish an additional 5-tuple that can then be used for that new stream. Thanks, Paul > Emil > > >> >> Thanks, >> Paul >> >>> If you'd like for that signalling to be in SDP, I >>> don't see any problem with it. However it would be best for this extra >>> layer of SDP signalling to appear at either the application layer or in >>> a signalling gateway (that is going to be there anyway). >>> >>> Does this make sense? >>> >>> Emil >>> >>>> >>>> Further questions: >>>> >>>> I presume that you expect bandwidth in the SDP to be an aggregate >>>> per-m-line, with application specific signaling for bandwidth at the >>>> per-RTP-stream level? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Paul >>>> >>>> On 5/29/13 2:59 PM, Emil Ivov wrote: >>>>> Hey all, >>>>> >>>>> Based on many of the discussions that we've had here, as well as many >>>>> others that we've had offlist, it seemed like a good idea to >>>>> investigate >>>>> a negotiation alternative that relies on SDP and Offer/Answer just a >>>>> little bit less. >>>>> >>>>> The following "no plan" draft attempts to present one such approach: >>>>> >>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ivov-rtcweb-noplan >>>>> >>>>> The draft relies on conventional use of SDP O/A but leaves the >>>>> intricacies of multi-source scenarios to application-specific >>>>> signalling, with potentially a little help from RTP. >>>>> >>>>> Hopefully, proponents of Plans A and B would find that the >>>>> interoperability requirements that concerned them can still be met >>>>> with >>>>> "no plan". Of course they would have to be addressed by >>>>> application-specific signalling and/or signalling gateways. >>>>> >>>>> Comments are welcome! >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Emil >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> rtcweb mailing list >>>> rtcweb@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>>> . >>>> >>> >> >> . >> >
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Sergio Garcia Murillo
- [rtcweb] No Plan - but what's the proposal Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Richard Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Martin Thomson
- [rtcweb] No Plan Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Mary Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Enrico Marocco
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Enrico Marocco
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan - PT based MUX Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Gunnar Hellstrom
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Gunnar Hellstrom
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Mark Rejhon
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan - but what's the proposal Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- [rtcweb] RTT (was Re: No Plan) Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] RTT (was Re: No Plan) Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] RTT (was Re: No Plan) Gunnar Hellstrom
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] RTT (was :No Plan ) Gunnar Hellstrom
- Re: [rtcweb] RTT (was :No Plan ) Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] RTT (was :No Plan ) Barry Dingle
- Re: [rtcweb] RTT (was :No Plan ) Gunnar Hellstrom
- Re: [rtcweb] RTT (was :No Plan ) Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] RTT (was :No Plan ) Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] RTT (was :No Plan ) Gunnar Hellstrom
- Re: [rtcweb] RTT (was :No Plan ) Iñaki Baz Castillo
- [rtcweb] Translating Plan A into No Plan (Was: No… Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] Translating Plan A into No Plan (Was… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Translating Plan A into No Plan (Was… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan - but what's the proposal Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan - but what's the proposal Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan - but what's the proposal Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] Translating Plan A into No Plan (Was… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] RTT (was :No Plan ) Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan - but what's the proposal Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Translating Plan A into No Plan (Was… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Translating Plan A into No Plan (Was… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Translating Plan A into No Plan (Was… Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan - but what's the proposal Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] Translating Plan A into No Plan (Was… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Jonathan Lennox
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Jim Barnett
- Re: [rtcweb] Translating Plan A into No Plan (Was… Roni Even
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Christer Holmberg
- [rtcweb] Repair Flows and No Plan (Was: No Plan) Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] RTT (was :No Plan ) BeckW
- Re: [rtcweb] RTT (was :No Plan ) Gunnar Hellstrom
- Re: [rtcweb] Repair Flows and No Plan (Was: No Pl… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan - but what's the proposal Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan - but what's the proposal Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan - but what's the proposal Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan - but what's the proposal Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan - but what's the proposal Emil Ivov
- [rtcweb] Plan xyz discussions; MMUSIC <> RTCweb R… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan - but what's the proposal Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan - but what's the proposal Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] No Plan - but what's the proposal Peter Thatcher