Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate to be re-opened
Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com> Wed, 19 June 2013 16:29 UTC
Return-Path: <pthatcher@google.com>
X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C15F021F9CC1 for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 09:29:31 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.877
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.877 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6YSfhZo7H3yS for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 09:29:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pb0-x236.google.com (mail-pb0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::236]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20D8F21F9C46 for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 09:29:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pb0-f54.google.com with SMTP id ro2so5239770pbb.13 for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 09:29:14 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=OFllY49bwArGAN4nwtFWH+2H/NUc+0lsgpaOlnYEN+Y=; b=K44WI8iYUqVjfSxV9jOdYT3qJ2D0krbY2gdkqvzO4Dlx589pdHQ8jfLjtPhPKCnREh 0Km23xEvg3+f6UWCFiJGEosD6y0Skj985caHwOzTKV0PIOQVB3QBiXHJ+4QFT+3IjLzi JCrQW6lLYgPrmmxxRx8zwjcGLrxBBB3C5G7egSZfMQwp2NWrfKxY+kKzP8FtR8TNiU/Q 0RJBV36o0zxaa/DDMGG809A073pXkyNKC0d+9xQqiR41kGb8r6RtpNyxp4YD5mEvJXpd cFL/rUFzqr2WQ4uZXBrVEXBPU2YlOl32pOF/KB61CF9wQ0Q5MGE50qjbogwqiJZVkp3a mVzQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=OFllY49bwArGAN4nwtFWH+2H/NUc+0lsgpaOlnYEN+Y=; b=cepfZzCdIUl10dTAB2QSWqIrscunVMopLsUkN9Fp5AwER7vVw7OdNelGDHEEkQVV0M I014QHQnMyTRU+WnpJiotP4e8jF2gnM2p8XWswU6VMAlABiKgPbDJIvLSbWy1+6jLQhA sQfblm/jva3HjVm62s1kwPWwz/kZNzGNIUsuG87EyrtO6Qf5TsYGVgEP8p10Cp58THby gtMWpjR6WyxM2RBg+CH0cNWDQeDVQVZ6CIH/F/B44G7n0RvnJfvwNe37nVIbP7xKiRJ0 7v/0G9RRSnO/zlYmfpKXuavu8kOfLrRVZKvIvGnR5hLXQVVS1O05M+gKcY1QGWzmNo8t KlGg==
X-Received: by 10.68.175.68 with SMTP id by4mr3625100pbc.53.1371659354784; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 09:29:14 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.66.88.8 with HTTP; Wed, 19 Jun 2013 09:28:31 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <51C1B907.8060508@hookflash.com>
References: <CALiegfkajJPxWZTzjYssP91VW+StStLpxoxGCkjOLKDMUWc0rA@mail.gmail.com> <CA+9kkMDk2L3SBPC08WU_5RcL16-Wzv8Mocj3-Qzmxz2E24ERGg@mail.gmail.com> <51C0C1A0.9010107@nostrum.com> <CAJrXDUGqSvsosZJhcRR-kCwEX1g_wvPnSZPmmcNwggk+Z9WNCA@mail.gmail.com> <CABkgnnWfV=5xBaRqAddqUURThs9J4T4+0HK4Ux07VA51r5oC3Q@mail.gmail.com> <CAJrXDUFNGKvWHw-yqeApEdTeuqMNPTDxvdKZ2DuzANmcR2y2CQ@mail.gmail.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1C3AE500@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <CAJrXDUHCkQSLab2UuY_vWP3Gr8uh+++c9mDq5f4sCpuaK5aeLQ@mail.gmail.com> <51C1B907.8060508@hookflash.com>
From: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 09:28:31 -0700
Message-ID: <CAJrXDUG06jvPvhfNwZ6Puzxj7E4XxELG_fU=S7B_c=tnC9eoNQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Robin Raymond <robin@hookflash.com>
Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="047d7bd6c6ac985ffd04df84541a"
X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlzBwHVp9gjktiMHCD33MECksOEyG3xRmDdgUHW0u3gKfh4i6Bskjy5W4e6OZDTkDagxbgNJqjW8bk1BDZlVmxjVJ1IEIlfW7M4Xs+h+BrbdfgnU2AwLpxXV3GXpyq5moJQT8kGoKiYOExF1eqiolKKfc8ZkuFxZJwf21wX6Sfixax0AdUPZnVI25J6hwQRN6Hp5EOr
Cc: "rtcweb_ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate to be re-opened
X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list <rtcweb.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb>
List-Post: <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 16:29:31 -0000
I might be wrong, but I tried reading and understanding your whole email, and it seems to come down to "I don't want to use SDP or a different (JSON) form of SDP". That's a fine thing to request, but why don't you just say that? It would save everyone a lot of reading and confusion to be more concise. Or, if you have specific things you'd like to do but can't, what are they? I think that would help me, and others, understand more easily. Use cases would be helpful. On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 6:58 AM, Robin Raymond <robin@hookflash.com> wrote: > > The trouble is not that we can choose to send whatever we want over the > wire. I know we can. If the WebRTC API is left with SDP as it stands, I'll > dissect the SDP from the browser, reinterpret and reconstruct on the SDP on > the remote side. That is NOT the issue. > > The summary of what I want/believe: > 1) I want as close to raw access to RTP/ICE streams, media, sources, > outputs, codecs as viable. Obviously doing the actual transmission, > encoding/decoding from JS is not feasible (yet), nor is secure [ICE must > occur for mutual agreement to exchange data between peers], but having > controls for how these components are wired together is extremely feasible > from JS and would allow immensely powerful apps to be produced from JS. > What would you like to do that you can't do via SDP right now? You said this isn't just about working through SDP. But I don't see anything concrete you can't do right now with sufficient SDP parsing/building/munging/hackery. > 2) I don't want my primary interface to control media/RTP engines to be > via obtaining or providing SDPs to the browser (or any alternative > serialized format); especially given that SDP requires a round trip > offer/answer to the remote party to affect change (e.g. it's entirely > possible to do that stateless and one-sided). The SPD interface API is a > monolithic do-everything serialized format to control an engine but > extremely badly/poorly/short sighted (regardless if it is SDP or whatever > instead), and it's wholly unneeded. > Short summary: "I don't want to use SDP". Right? 3) I don't want a replacement for SDP with another more "pretty" format > like JSON. > Short summary: "I don't want to use SDP or a different syntax for SDP". Right? 4) I want no specified requirement from the browser to have any particular > form of media negotiation API requirement what-so-ever (regardless if I can > opt to substitute with my own format on the wire or not) > Short summary: "I don't want to use SDP or a different syntax for SDP". Right? > 5) Using SDP with offer/answer build into the browser binary is a horribly > BAD technical choice (even for SIP folks) and must be stopped, see: > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg07873.html > Short summary: "I don't want to use SDP". Right? > > > I too want to understand the rational for keeping something as bad as SDP > with offer/answer as the primary mechanism for controlling the media > components and interaction to those component and more importantly, I'd too > would like to open debate to agreeing or not to provide a lower layer API > rather than a media negotiation API as a complete substitute alternative to > SDP with offer/answer. > > If we can agree that it's far superior to have a lower level media/RTC > component API rather than a media negotiation API, then we can propose what > that API could look like (and there are people who have already have > starting proposals). I'd throw my hat in the ring to propose such and API > if necessary as I've written such engines from scratch before. But I don't > want to waste time proposing ore reviewing such an API which will be > summarily dismissed because people are so stuck on requiring a media > negotiation API built into the browser binary, and specifically SDP with > offer/answer in this case. > The WG may dislike and reject your proposal, but there's a bit of truth to the old mathematically incorrect sports adage "you miss 100% of the shots you don't take". Anyone who argues that they need/want that simple SDP media negotiation API > must understand that a lower level API would allow a wrapper API to produce > the same WebRTC API the have today but be built entirely from JavaScript > That depends on how low-level you go. If you go too low-level, it becomes infeasible to do things correctly and performantly in JavaScript. > upon a lower level API. Thus they can have their "just add-milk" baking > API. But those of us who need control of the raw ingredients beyond the > "just add milk" can still innovate. > > -Robin > > > Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com> > 19 June, 2013 2:49 AM > Correct my if I'm wrong, but the API already leaves what goes over the > wire completely up to the JS app. So we couldn't re-open a debate of "SDP > or not SDP" for the wire format, because there's nothing to debate. We > already decided it would be left to the JS to decide. The only thing left > to debate is the API. > > Or am I wrong? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> > 19 June, 2013 2:34 AM > Hi, > > We need to be very clear what we talk about, or some people are always > going to be confused :) > > So, AFAIK, the discussion is about SDP O/A usage in the API, only in the > API, and nowhere but the API. > > Whatever people us on the wire is outside the scope. > > Right? > > Regards, > > Christer > > > > Sent from *Windows* using *TouchDown* (www.nitrodesk.com) > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* Peter Thatcher [pthatcher@google.com] > *To:* Martin Thomson [martin.thomson@gmail.com] > *CC:* rtcweb@ietf.org [rtcweb@ietf.org] > *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate to be re-opened > Martin, you're right; that was overly harsh of me. Adam, I apologize. > I'll be civil in the future. > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com> > 19 June, 2013 1:36 AM > Martin, you're right; that was overly harsh of me. Adam, I apologize. > I'll be civil in the future. > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> > 18 June, 2013 6:25 PM > I agree with Peter, except for this bit: > > Adam is much harder to confuse than you think, or than he professes. > > Speaking of burning it all down and starting over. If you want a > house-related analogy, that's not quite correct. It's refusing to > build an extension because the old house, while legally fit for > habitation, is falling down around your ears. Since you only need > foundations, it's not that big a job (though I'll grant you that it's > bigger than many people realize, even with that smaller scope). > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com> > 18 June, 2013 6:16 PM > Adam, I think you're confused. As Ted pointed out, there are two > different uses of SDP: 1. as a control surface, 2. as a message format for > signalling. SDPNG was trying to replace SDP for #2. While I believe this > thread was started entirely focused on #1. So you're talking about > different things. > > So far the only time spent on trying to replace or avoid SDP for #1 has > been "comment 22", and to a lesser extent the proposal I just made for > adding 2 methods to PeerConnection (createLocalStream and > createRemoteStream). I think it's incorrect to conclude that we should > never try to improve #1 just because other in the past failed to replace > #2. They're very different. > > I also don't think we should burn down WebRTC and start over, but despite > what some seem to think, we don't have to choose between "burn it down" and > "never improve it". There are many options other than the two extremes. > > > > By the way, a gentle reminder: SDP is not the only way to do #2. I work > on a rather large system almost entirely build around Jingle, without a > hint of SDP, and it works just fine. Much better than SDP would have, I > think. Just because SDPNG didn't work out doesn't mean there will never be > any way other to do signalling than SDP. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > >
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Alexandre GOUAILLARD
- [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate to be… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Erik Lagerway
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Christer Holmberg
- [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or not… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Richard Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Parthasarathi R
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Bossiel thioriguel
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Bossiel thioriguel
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Bossiel thioriguel
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Bossiel thioriguel
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Bossiel thioriguel
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Martin Thomson