Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture
Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> Thu, 20 June 2013 22:25 UTC
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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 18:25:16 -0400
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From: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
To: "Hutton, Andrew" <andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com>
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture
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On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Hutton, Andrew < andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com> wrote: > Agree with Hadriel here I so no additional security benefit for EKT given > that any media gateway is going to be in cahoots with the webserver and has > access to the key. > See my reply to Hadriel on XSS and bid-down attacks. > So all we are left with is the performance benefit of using SDES support > in the browser which is significant and reduces the barrier to deploying > WebRTC so let's go for the option that is easy to specify, easy to deploy, > cheap to implement (already exists in Chrome), and we are all familiar with. > > SDES support looks like the obvious choice. > > Regards > Andy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of Hadriel Kaplan > > Sent: 20 June 2013 08:11 > > To: Richard Barnes > > Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture > > > > > > On Jun 19, 2013, at 8:58 PM, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote: > > > > > I think we still disagree on the scenario. I've tried to sketch out > > the full sequence of operations to be clear. (WebSequenceDiagrams > > source below.) > > > <http://goo.gl/uRi0W> > > > > > > ISTM that there are two major differences: > > > -- In the SDES case, the JS and the Web Server both have access to > > the media keys. In the EKT case, the browser handles the keying update > > directly. > > > -- In the EKT case, the PBX/gateway has to be in the media path to do > > EKT. After EKT, it just switches packets (it's basically a TURN > > server). > > > > > > So it seems like a security benefit for EKT and a performance benefit > > for SDES. Your quantitative valuation of these benefits / costs may > > vary. > > > > I'm confused. EKT has "a security benefit" for whom, exactly? > > It's not more secure for the browser user, since a malicious web server > > can simply *be* the PBX, terminate DTLS-EKT and get the key and the > > browser user would never know it. > > It's not more secure for the SIP user, since the SIP user is only doing > > SDES and has no idea what's happening on the far-end. > > > > Who are you saying is being better protected from what? > > > > I suppose we could claim the owner of the PBX feels more secure, if > > they're not the same as the owner of the web-server and don't trust the > > web-server. But again, if the web-server owner is malicious it will > > just terminate the media pretending to be the PBX on one side, and > > pretending to be the browser to the real PBX on the other side. And > > why would a PBX owner accept calls from a web-server it doesn't trust > > to begin with? > > > > Afaict, the main security benefit of DTLS-EKT is the same as that of > > DTLS-SRTP: the keys aren't sent in the JSON/SDP/whatever, so they can't > > be sniffed even if cleartext HTTP is used. So in a weird way, the > > security benefit of it is it let's us use an insecure HTTP transport > > for the JSON/SDP/HTML/whatever. Luckily the ability to see and modify > > what goes on there is no big deal... like for example be able to insert > > a malicious DTLS-SRTP B2BUA that records everything. Oh, wait... > > > > -hadriel > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rtcweb mailing list > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >
- [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Vijaya Mandava (vimandav)
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Dan Wing
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Dan Wing
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Parthasarathi R
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Richard Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Michael Procter
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Michael Procter
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Hadriel Kaplan
- [rtcweb] Agenda time request for IETF 87 Berlin Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Agenda time request for IETF 87 Berl… Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Richard Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Dan Wing
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Dan Wing
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Richard Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Richard Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Richard Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Richard Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Richard Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Dan Wing
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Dan Wing
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Max Jonas Werner
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Parthasarathi R
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Max Jonas Werner
- Re: [rtcweb] No Interim on SDES at this juncture Timothy B. Terriberry