Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision
Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> Thu, 14 November 2013 06:33 UTC
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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 00:33:00 -0600
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From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
To: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>
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Cc: "rai-ads@tools.ietf.org Area" <rai-ads@tools.ietf.org>, "tsv-ads@tools.ietf.org" <tsv-ads@tools.ietf.org>, David Black <david.black@emc.com>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision
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On Wednesday, November 13, 2013, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote: > > I'm trying to not say much on this whole thread but I wonder if the tsv-ad > could provide any more insight around why this was appropriate for TSV. Probably so, but Martin is on his last week of parental leave - I'll check with him when he surfaces. Spencer > > It's not assigning any new DSCP, it's simply providing pointers to the > existing codes defined in documents done by TSV that talk about the DSCP to > use for audio, video, and such. I think if folks could help people > understand what transport content was, that would help. (and added David as > he has been involved with this draft ) > > Cullen in my individual contributor role. > > On Nov 13, 2013, at 9:29 PM, Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com> > wrote: > > >> I want this group to be done. As long as I can't even point to the > >> document that describes how we do QoS, I have no chance of getting it to > >> that stage. > > > > [BA] The approach of dispersing work among half a dozen WGs isn't > working in this case, and in fact hasn't worked particularly well in the > past either, because it generates neither urgency nor focus. > > > > At this point, we are probably not much more than a year away from > widespread deployment of running code. So if a critical dependency is not > making progress toward a WGLC it is time to hit reset. The reality is that > there is no reservoir of undiscovered manpower to get this work done, just > interested authors and reviewers who if fed a steady stream of documents > without unnecessary distractions and bureaucratic impediments can help us > rapidly get to closure. > > > > Our current process is akin to shuttling children from one neglectful > foster home to another until we lose track of them and realize to our > dismay that something bad has happened. This isn't a plan so much as an > accident waiting to happen. > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > >>> > >>> At 02:21 PM 11/13/2013, Harald Alvestrand wrote: > >>>> This mail concerns both administrative and technical issues, which is > >>>> why it is explicitly copied to the ADs of RAI and TSV. I hope I have > >>>> managed to keep them separate in the message. > >>>> > >>>> Magnus said in an email yesterday, concerning draft-ietf-rtcweb-qos: > >>>> > >>>>> Okay, we might not have been public enough on this. It was > >>>> requested by > >>>>> the Transport ADs quite some time ago that doing the QoS document > >>>> in our > >>>>> WG was not appropriate and requested us to direct the document to > >>>> TSVWG. > >>>>> Which was done, and where it hasn't made progress. > >>>>> > >>>>> You might have noted that James Polk did comment in the milestone > part > >>>>> in the monday session of IETF88 about our QoS milestone should be > >>>> killed. > >>>> I want to protest this - both practically and formally. > >>>> > >>>> To get the formal stuff out of the way first: > >>>> > >>>> Changing the deliverables of the working group *without telling the > >>>> working group* is totally inappropriate in an open, consensus-driven > >>>> process. > >>>> Changing the deliverables of the working group *without telling the > >>>> working group why* and *without allowing those reasons to be debated* > is > >>>> totally inappropriate in an open, consensus-driven process. > >>>> > >>>> I protest against this action. > >>>> > >>>> ACTION REQUEST 1: I request that this decision be declared null and > >>>> void, and that the relevant ADs send out a message to RTCWEB (and > TSVWG > >>>> if appropriate) *PROPOSING* such an action, and giving a reasonable > >>>> timeline for when they will make a decision based on mailing list > >>>> feedback. > >>>> > >>>> In practice: > >>>> > >>>> The draft as it existed before its untimely demise consisted of two > >>>> things: > >>>> > >>>> - A description of how QoS mechanisms could be useful in the RTCWEB > >>>> use case > >>>> - A description of existing mechanisms that could be appropriate for > the > >>>> RTCWEB use case > >>>> > >>>> The first one is clearly something that needs RTCWEB consensus. It > seems > >>>> to have no need for, nor likelyhood of gathering interest enough for, > a > >>>> TSVWG consensus. > >>>> > >>>> There could be some argument that the second part needs TSVWG > consensus, > >>>> especially if it was redefining any mechanisms, or it was making > choices > >>>> between mechanisms where TSVWG had strong opinions about which > >>>> mechanisms should be chosen, but had not chosen to document that in > any > >>>> document on which IETF consensus had been declared (that is to say, > >>>> existing RFCs). > >>>> > >>>> My archive shows 36 messages w
- [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision James Polk
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Gonzalo Camarillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Wesley Eddy
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Gonzalo Camarillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision James Polk
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Wesley Eddy
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Subha Dhesikan (sdhesika)
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Eggert, Lars
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Eggert, Lars
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Dave Crocker
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Dave Crocker
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Wesley Eddy
- [rtcweb] RTCWEB milestones (was: Protesting the Q… SM
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWEB milestones Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Markus.Isomaki