Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC
Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> Thu, 10 November 2011 21:35 UTC
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:34:57 -0800
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To: Hadriel Kaplan <HKaplan@acmepacket.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC
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On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 1:07 PM, Hadriel Kaplan <HKaplan@acmepacket.com> wrote: > > On Nov 10, 2011, at 12:20 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> I can envision situations on which security would be desirable in both of >> these applications. In the case of a "greeting card application" (whatever >> that is) my greeting card might contain sensitive personal or medical >> information (congratulations on your pregnancy, sorry to hear you have >> cancer etc.) Surely I do in fact want that information secured. Similarly, >> it might not be important to have my Farmville chats secure, but if the >> purpose of an in-game chat is for me and my co-player to cooperate >> in a game where money is on the line (e.g., a tournament), then suddenlu >> security becomesmuch more important. Not to mention that the players >> may simply be using in-game chat to discuss personal stuff. > > I think that's a red herring. Just because you as a user could post your social security number on a forum website, for example, does not mean all forum websites should use HTTPS "just in case". Because even if they used HTTPS it's not going to secure your social security number from being read by anyone else, nor does the forum website claim to provide any such form of confidentiality to begin with. This isn't my point: Roman offered a set of use cases he claimed didn't require confidentiality. But in fact, many such cases do. The fact that there are also overlapping cases which do not is an argument for erring on the side of confidentiality, not the other way around. > The greeting card case, for example, is going to record your media on some server somewhere - just because they use SRTP from you to do so doesn't mean they're going to prevent everyone on the planet from being able to access the greeting card; or even if they only allow authorized users to listen to the greeting card, it doesn't mean that they won't simply use an HTTP'ed wav file to deliver it to them. Obviously if a greeting card app *wants* to provide that sort of confidentiality/privacy, then it can and should use SRTP as well as encrypt everything else, control authorization, etc. That's their choice, based on what type of application they want to provide. Would that this were in fact true. But I don't think history supports this argument. Quite the contrary: we have a whole array of protocols which really should be secure all the time (e-mail is a good example) but aren't because they were initially deployed insecure and it's hard to convert. The good news, however, is that WebRTC can be done securely from the beginning in a way that (unlike HTTPS) doesn't impose significant inconvenience on the site operator. >> The point is that it's very hard to anticipate which communications media >> will be used for sensitive information. To say "we don't need security >> in this application because nobody will ever use it to discuss sensitive >> stuff" is short-sighted. Better simply to be secure all the time. > > > And one could argue this the exact opposite - if the browser shows some lock-icon thing for SRTP, then it's better for them to use RTP instead for such apps, so as not to make you think the service as a whole is secure if it really isn't. Obviously, UI confusion is a real problem, but I don't really buy the argument that Facebook shouldn't use HTTPS because people will be confused about what happens when they post on their wall. -Ekr
- [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Cameron Byrne
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Neil Stratford
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC José Luis Millán
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC John Elwell
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Harald Alvestrand
- [rtcweb] SRTP - mandatory to implement vs mandato… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Wolfgang Beck
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Jonathan Lennox
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Wolfgang Beck
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Wolfgang Beck
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP - mandatory to implement vs man… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Randell Jesup
- [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: Let'… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] surveillance in RTCWEB (was wiretapp… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Cameron Byrne
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Cameron Byrne
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Avasarala, Ranjit
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Avasarala, Ranjit
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Ravindran, Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Neil Stratford
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Neil Stratford
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Ravindran, Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Ravindran, Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Ravindran, Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP - mandatory to implement vs man… Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP - mandatory to implement vs man… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Olle E. Johansson
- [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Let's … Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Ravindran, Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Kevin P. Fleming
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Ravindran, Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Miguel Casas-Sanchez
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Neil Stratford
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Neil Stratford
- [rtcweb] Traffic on the list (Re: Traffic should … Harald Alvestrand
- [rtcweb] Fwd: Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: L… Wolfgang Beck
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Neil Stratford
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Neil Stratford
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Neil Stratford
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Michael Thornburgh
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Matthew Kaufman
- [rtcweb] Media Synchronization (Re: Traffic shoul… Matthew Kaufman
- [rtcweb] DTMF (was Re: Traffic should be encrypte… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Roman Shpount
- [rtcweb] POTS lines to browser (was Re: Fwd: Traf… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] POTS lines to browser (was Re: Fwd: … Wolfgang Beck
- [rtcweb] Call Security (was Re: Let's define the … Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] POTS lines to browser (was Re: Fwd: … Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] POTS lines to browser (was Re: Fwd: … Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Media Synchronization (Re: Traffic s… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Traffic should be encrypted. (Re: Le… Victor Pascual Avila
- Re: [rtcweb] Let's define the purpose of WebRTC Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] SRTP requirement - wiretapping (Re: … Cullen Jennings