Re: [rtcweb] [tsvwg] STUN DSCP and draft-ietf-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos
Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com> Wed, 31 July 2019 23:21 UTC
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From: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 16:21:09 -0700
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To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Cc: Matthew Kaufman <mkaufman@bluejeans.com>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>, "tsvwg@ietf.org" <tsvwg@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/berad6vJBKVDQttlQzcUSBCel9o>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] [tsvwg] STUN DSCP and draft-ietf-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos
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Great, glad that we've already got this speced. Thanks Harald. On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 7:07 AM Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote: > draft-ietf-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos is out of scope for this working group, but > didn't we cover this ground extensively in draft-ietf-rtcweb-transport? > > Namely (from -17): > > 4.2. Usage of Quality of Service - DSCP and Multiplexing > > When the packet is sent, the network will make decisions about > queueing and/or discarding the packet that can affect the quality of > the communication. The sender can attempt to set the DSCP field of > the packet to influence these decisions. > > Implementations SHOULD attempt to set QoS on the packets sent, > according to the guidelines in [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos]. It is > appropriate to depart from this recommendation when running on > platforms where QoS marking is not implemented. > > The implementation MAY turn off use of DSCP markings if it detects > symptoms of unexpected behaviour like priority inversion or blocking > of packets with certain DSCP markings. Some examples of such > behaviors are described in [ANRW16]. The detection of these > conditions is implementation dependent. > > A particularly hard problem is when one media transport uses multiple > DSCP code points, where one may be blocked and another may be > allowed. This is allowed even within a single media flow for video > in [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos]. Implementations need to diagnose > this scenario; one possible implementation is to send initial ICE > probes with DSCP 0, and send ICE probes on all the DSCP code points > that are intended to be used once a candidate pair has been selected. > If one or more of the DSCP-marked probes fail, the sender will switch > the media type to using DSCP 0. This can be carried out > simultaneously with the initial media traffic; on failure, the > initial data may need to be resent. This switch will of course > invalidate any congestion information gathered up to that point. > > Failures can also start happening during the lifetime of the call; > this case is expected to be rarer, and can be handled by the normal > mechanisms for transport failure, which may involve an ICE restart. > > Note that when a DSCP code point causes non-delivery, one has to > switch the whole media flow to DSCP 0, since all traffic for a single > media flow needs to be on the same queue for congestion control > purposes. Other flows on the same transport, using different DSCP > code points, don't need to change. > > All packets carrying data from the SCTP association supporting the > data channels MUST use a single DSCP code point. The code point used > SHOULD be that recommended by [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos] for the > highest priority data channel carried. Note that this means that all > data packets, no matter what their relative priority is, will be > treated the same by the network. > > All packets on one TCP connection, no matter what it carries, MUST > use a single DSCP code point. > > More advice on the use of DSCP code points with RTP and on the > relationship between DSCP and congestion control is given in > [RFC7657]. > > Den 31.07.2019 07:12, skrev Justin Uberti: > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 10:10 PM Matthew Kaufman <mkaufman@bluejeans.com > > <mailto:mkaufman@bluejeans.com>> wrote: > > > > I noted two of particular interest… one is the “network eats > > DSCP-marked but allows non-marked” case. Arguments go both ways as > > to what one should do in this case (follow network admin desires vs. > > work as often as possible). > > > > > > I lean towards 'work as often as possible', which suggests we probably > > need both marked and unmarked ICE checks to determine whether we should > > mark media traffic (and potentially multiple differently marked checks > > in the mux case). > > > > ____ > > > > __ __ > > > > The other is picking which DSCP value in the case where multiplexing > > is in use and you don’t know whether you’re audio-only or > > audio-plus-video or data-only at the time you do the ICE > exchange.____ > > > > __ __ > > > > (Never mind that Windows has limitations on marking, which I’m sure > > we’ve all dealt with)____ > > > > __ __ > > > > Matthew Kaufman____ > > > > __ __ > > > > *From: *Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com <mailto:juberti@google.com > >> > > *Date: *Wednesday, July 31, 2019 at 10:36 AM > > *To: *Matthew Kaufman <mkaufman@bluejeans.com > > <mailto:mkaufman@bluejeans.com>> > > *Cc: *"tsvwg@ietf.org <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>" <tsvwg@ietf.org > > <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>>, "rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>" > > <rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>> > > *Subject: *Re: [rtcweb] STUN DSCP and draft-ietf-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos____ > > > > __ __ > > > > hmm, right. We have definitely observed that some networks will eat > > marked traffic, so there needs to be some sort of trial exchange to > > ensure a given marking will work. ____ > > > > __ __ > > > > Can you summarize the other issues you are concerned about? ____ > > > > __ __ > > > > On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 9:47 PM Matthew Kaufman > > <mkaufman@bluejeans.com <mailto:mkaufman@bluejeans.com>> wrote:____ > > > > IF one believes that none of the open issues mentioned in the > > email thread I sent are an issue, then sure, RFC5245 applies.____ > > > > ____ > > > > But even so, I would argue that draft-ietf-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos > > should say what to do and reference 5245.____ > > > > ____ > > > > Alternatively, one might believe that one or more of the issues > > are a real problem… in which case we should specify alternative > > behavior.____ > > > > ____ > > > > Matthew Kaufman____ > > > > ____ > > > > *From: *Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com > > <mailto:juberti@google.com>> > > *Date: *Wednesday, July 31, 2019 at 10:08 AM > > *To: *Matthew Kaufman <mkaufman@bluejeans.com > > <mailto:mkaufman@bluejeans.com>> > > *Cc: *"tsvwg@ietf.org <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>" <tsvwg@ietf.org > > <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>>, "rtcweb@ietf.org > > <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>" <rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto: > rtcweb@ietf.org>> > > *Subject: *Re: [rtcweb] STUN DSCP and > > draft-ietf-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos____ > > > > ____ > > > > I had thought this was already covered > > in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5245#section-7.1.2.4 > > < > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc5245-23section-2D7.1.2.4&d=DwMFaQ&c=PpPcabknNF6XJFBaeGH06g&r=9ZdwibcaitRZyo80OngsIQIXTs5v-9PG8HT1YlIatVI&m=fbpMIVl4LuFN5soU2Avi1NbII--opolVHejelXn2svE&s=ltGEgbp10iUc1gBO_cimQvtZZ9HfiJOm_ysp3ZOo0eQ&e= > >, > > which basically says exactly what you are asking for.____ > > > > ____ > > > > On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 9:09 PM Matthew Kaufman > > <mkaufman@bluejeans.com <mailto:mkaufman@bluejeans.com>> > wrote:____ > > > > Was chasing down some webrtc rabbit holes today, and came > > across the following concern:____ > > > > ____ > > > > draft-ietf-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos has exactly zero language about > > how the STUN packets should be marked for ICE negotiation. > > The issue is mentioned in > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness, but I believe that > > the rtcweb-qos document should be the reference to how an > > rtcweb transport author should be setting DiffServ > markings.____ > > > > ____ > > > > Also, there was a great conversation on the topic back in > > 2014 that unfortunately seems to have petered out before a > > resolution to some obvious open issues: > > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/rtcweb/?gbt=1&index=HH0qztqt4UtfZdpuxHTVcg7hZdE > > < > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mailarchive.ietf.org_arch_browse_rtcweb_-3Fgbt-3D1-26index-3DHH0qztqt4UtfZdpuxHTVcg7hZdE&d=DwMFaQ&c=PpPcabknNF6XJFBaeGH06g&r=9ZdwibcaitRZyo80OngsIQIXTs5v-9PG8HT1YlIatVI&m=fbpMIVl4LuFN5soU2Avi1NbII--opolVHejelXn2svE&s=FlrSPxMvUIrN-iqDsEmRI1U0URJnINsru1TEVWNMUBQ&e= > >____ > > > > ____ > > > > Would be great to finish the conversation before finalizing > > the specification for how to mark these.____ > > > > ____ > > > > Personally I’m in the “ICE is testing connectivity, so STUN > > must be marked exactly the same as corresponding media” > > camp.____ > > > > ____ > > > > Matthew Kaufman____ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rtcweb mailing list > > rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > < > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_rtcweb&d=DwMFaQ&c=PpPcabknNF6XJFBaeGH06g&r=9ZdwibcaitRZyo80OngsIQIXTs5v-9PG8HT1YlIatVI&m=fbpMIVl4LuFN5soU2Avi1NbII--opolVHejelXn2svE&s=89GkSxwEhG63-il9an69COx4NNrA8nM3i4siRUHMFHM&e= > >____ > > > >
- [rtcweb] STUN DSCP and draft-ietf-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN DSCP and draft-ietf-tsvwg-rtcwe… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN DSCP and draft-ietf-tsvwg-rtcwe… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN DSCP and draft-ietf-tsvwg-rtcwe… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN DSCP and draft-ietf-tsvwg-rtcwe… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] STUN DSCP and draft-ietf-tsvwg-rtcwe… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] [tsvwg] STUN DSCP and draft-ietf-tsv… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [rtcweb] [tsvwg] STUN DSCP and draft-ietf-tsv… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] [tsvwg] STUN DSCP and draft-ietf-tsv… Ruediger.Geib
- Re: [rtcweb] [tsvwg] STUN DSCP and draft-ietf-tsv… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [rtcweb] [tsvwg] STUN DSCP and draft-ietf-tsv… Black, David
- Re: [rtcweb] [tsvwg] STUN DSCP and draft-ietf-tsv… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] [tsvwg] STUN DSCP and draft-ietf-tsv… Justin Uberti