Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec
Marshall Eubanks <marshall.eubanks@gmail.com> Mon, 02 April 2012 12:43 UTC
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Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 08:43:41 -0400
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From: Marshall Eubanks <marshall.eubanks@gmail.com>
To: "Paul E. Jones" <paulej@packetizer.com>
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Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec
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On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 3:16 AM, Paul E. Jones <paulej@packetizer.com> wrote: > Silvia, > > I believe H.263 would be covered if you license the MPEG-4 Visual "patent > pool". I might be wrong, but you can certainly get clarification from MPEG > LA. You could also reach out to the list of companies who have claimed IPR > at the ITU (search for ITU IPR database). I think there are about 14 > companies who have IPR claims submitted. According to this http://www.nine-9s.com/h-263-codec-software.htm Lucent is not covered by MPEG-LA, although it is not clear if they actually claim IPR. Regards Marshall > > As with H.264, it was a very open process. Those involved are likely the > only ones with IPR claims. Perhaps not, but given the pervasive use of > H.263 already on the Internet, one would think if there was some IPR in > hiding, it would have appeared already. > > Paul > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Silvia Pfeiffer [mailto:silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com] >> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 1:29 AM >> To: Paul E. Jones >> Cc: Stephan Wenger; Basil Mohamed Gohar; rtcweb@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec >> >> Note that H.264 isn't even under discussion here. >> >> Also, my question on H.263 hasn't been answered yet. I do wonder about the >> patent situation there! >> >> Cheers, >> Silvia. >> >> On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 8:56 PM, Paul E. Jones <paulej@packetizer.com> >> wrote: >> > Stephan, >> > >> >> The most commonly cited timeline for a widely in use technology to be >> >> "save" from a patent viewpoint, based on equitable defenses such as >> >> laches (in the US) is six years. In some countries of significant >> >> size, this time is longer, and in others, equitable defenses do not >> >> exist. (Very briefly, and perhaps incorrectly put, those equitable >> >> defenses allow a defendant to argue successfully that a patent cannot >> >> be enforced as the right holder knew that the patent claim was likely >> >> being infringed, and did not enforce the patent.). >> > >> > Recall that Unisys forced people to pay royalties for using the GIF >> > file format long after it became widely popular. The company asserted >> > IPR claims on GIF since it used a compression algorithm to which it >> > acquired the rights, and it started doing so right near the end of the >> > 20-year period during which a patent is considered valid. >> > >> > In short, I really do not think one should ever assume it might be >> > safe to use any technology. >> > >> >> In addition, as I pointed out in the meeting, the use of a video >> >> codec created by a body such as MPEG or ITU-T SG16 has the advantage >> >> of that the patents of all participating players are available at >> >> least under Reasonable and Non Discriminatory (RAND) terms. This may >> >> sound like a Bad Thing if you operate under a business model that >> >> prevents you to pay anything for patent licenses, but it is surely a >> >> Good Thing if you are willing to dish out a moderate amount of money >> >> for a license. RAND recently has gotten teeth, not so much in terms >> >> of the monetary compensation aspect, but in terms of difficulty (if >> >> not unavailability) to obtain injunctive relive, among others. H.26x >> >> and the MPEG standards benefit from RAND commitments, VP8, AFAIK, does >> not. >> > >> > I believe your point here is perhaps worth even more consideration. >> > >> > I really know nothing about the IPR that exists or might be claimed on >> VP8. >> > That said, I know there has such an incredible amount of work by so >> > many companies to produce H.264 that I would be utterly surprised to >> > find that >> > VP8 does not infringe on something. All of the technology that went >> > into >> > H.264 represents only a subset of all of the IPR that exists in the >> > video coding space. >> > >> > It's the rest of the IPR, a bunch of IPR owned by companies who >> > actually have significant investment in video coding technologies, >> > that I believe people should worry about. Everyone who worked on >> > H.264 did so as part of an open standards process, as you mention >> > above. They spent a lot of time and energy in the process, coming to >> > an agreement to license the technology that went into H.264. They did >> > not agree to license technology that did not go into H.264. So, if >> > one of those participating companies were to subsequently sue over >> > some IPR used in VP8, I would not dare call them a troll. >> > >> > Trolls always exist and may even lay claims to H.264, but I suspect it >> > would be much harder for a troll to lay claim to H.264. That codec >> > spent years in development with input from tons of people. If a troll >> > were to come in and lay claim to some part of H.264, I suspect there >> > would be several companies that would stand up and beat them down. >> > After all, a claim against H.264 would not only present a problem for >> > the defendant in a lawsuit, but would be an issue for every company >> > with IPR on H.264. Further, no matter what part of H.264 such a troll >> > might decide to pick on, there are a number of world-class engineers >> > who (as you indicated about H.263) could probably name the person or >> > persons who contributed the section of text, algorithm, procedure, etc., >> all of which is covered with a known license. >> > >> > VP8 does not have the benefit of such significant peer review and >> > collaboration, nor does it benefit from any IPR licensing agreements >> > from legitimate companies holding tons of video coding-related IPR. >> > >> > Paul >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > rtcweb mailing list >> > rtcweb@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Basil Mohamed Gohar
- [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Dean Willis
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Lorenzo Miniero
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Piers O'Hanlon
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Paul E. Jones
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Paul E. Jones
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Gregory Maxwell
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Dean Willis
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Kevin P. Fleming
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec Kevin P. Fleming
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for H.263 baseline codec David Benham (dbenham)