Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and offer/answer)]
Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com> Fri, 09 September 2011 21:27 UTC
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From: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2011 17:29:22 -0400
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To: Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and offer/answer)]
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On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 5:15 PM, Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org>wrote: > On 9/9/2011 3:23 PM, Alan Johnston wrote: > >> Ekr is correct. If we allow RTP, which I think is a mistake, then >> there is always a downgrade attack. >> > > Yes, that's true. The same issue was involved in the best-effort-srtp > draft, which unfortunately > was dropped because CapNeg would "solve" it. (For historical note, it's > still not "solved" > because CapNeg support is >>>> more complex than best-effort-srtp and not > generally deployed, > and I doubt ever will be ala SDPng (though I'm not close to status on > CapNeg.) > > Hmmm. A real downgrade attack requires that the signalling be compromised. > I wonder if there > are characteristics of a webrtc transaction that could help avoid this sort > of attack (for example, > a secondary way out-of-scope here for the app to know ahead of time if the > target will need to > be downgraded). Or some way for the service to vouch for the downgrade > (i.e. wasn't a MITM). > You have to trust the service, but in this case you're doing so to this > degree anyways. > > > My point was that if we must support insecure media, we could avoid >> the complexity of CapNeg by not requiring a single pass non-secure >> media negotiation. >> > > There is another option. I talked about services that wanted to support > PSTN could decide if they > were willing to support a downgrade. The application could know it's > calling a PSTN gateway and > if it does know that, avoid a media gateway by not offering encrypted > media. > > I see a significant use-case for some services will be calling PSTN numbers > and services, much > as it is now for VoIP. > Yes, a bunch of new non-legacy services wouldn't use/want it. But the app > for a PSTN-using service > could specifically allow it. > > So the question comes down to what's the advantage to using unencrypted > RTP? > 1) No media gateway needed. This is the big one. Saves on $$$, saves on > delay (sometimes a lot), > may save on complexity in a PBX type of situation. > But is there an issue due to ICE requirements? If those can't be turned > off safely too, that kills this > whole discussion I think. > 2) Debug/etc tools work better with RTP. Not important. > 3) May simplify/improve some E911 cases. Might be important; likely not. In Quebec City, the mic discussion also noted a use case for enterprises that want to log communications. Regarding #1, the ability to avoid media gateways for "contemporary devices" has been a design requirement from the start. I think we need to have a clear understanding that this requirement creates serious, unavoidable problems before jettisoning it. > So, effectively it comes down to "is advantage 1 worth the > complexity/risk?" Anyone want to defend that > case? > > - Alan - >> >> On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 1:35 PM, Eric Rescorla<ekr@rtfm.com> wrote: >> >>> Unless I'm missing something, if you (a) support an insecure mode and (b) >>> allow >>> >>> negotiation of insecure vs. secure, there's not really any way to >>> avoid a downgrade >>> issue; the attacker can always pretend not to support security and how do >>> you >>> know better? Obviously, it helps if you can negotiate the use or non-use >>> of >>> media security over a secure-ish signaling channel, but that doesn't >>> reduce >>> the threat from the signaling service. >>> >>> Best, >>> -Ekr >>> >>> > -- > Randell Jesup > randell-ietf@jesup.org > > > ______________________________**_________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/rtcweb<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb> >
- [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client acting… Elwell, John
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Dan York
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Elwell, John
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Olle E Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Dan York
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Igor Faynberg
- [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was RE:… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Elwell, John
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Elwell, John
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Robert O'Callahan
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Robert O'Callahan
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Elwell, John
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Asveren, Tolga
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Randell Jesup
- [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate (and offer/answer) Jonathan Lennox
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Christopher Blizzard
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate (and offer/answer) Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Christopher Blizzard
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Randell Jesup
- [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and offer… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Michael Procter
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Jonathan Lennox
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Igor Faynberg
- [rtcweb] Meeting Bridge and Webex link for Sept 8… Sohel Khan
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Christopher Blizzard
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser? Aaron Clauson
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Alan Johnston
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Alan Johnston
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser? Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- [rtcweb] SIP vs Websocket in RTCWeb [was RE: SIP … Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP vs Websocket in RTCWeb [was RE: … Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP vs Websocket in RTCWeb [was RE: … Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP vs Websocket in RTCWeb [was RE: … Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Jozsef Vass
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP vs Websocket in RTCWeb [was RE: … Peter Saint-Andre
- [rtcweb] signaling protocol SHANMUGALINGAM SIVASOTHY
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser? Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser? Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser? Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dan Wing
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dan Wing