Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (adding multiple sources without encoding them in SDP)
Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> Mon, 17 June 2013 21:56 UTC
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Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 14:56:18 -0700
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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
To: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (adding multiple sources without encoding them in SDP)
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On 17 June 2013 12:26, Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com> wrote: > Yes, I was expecting you to be more supportive. I'm surprised out how your > want "all or nothing". I'm afraid if our options for a clean API are all or > nothing, we'll just end up with nothing. I'd prefer to try incremental > improvements to word toward (eventually) a clean API. Yes, I apologize if the language seemed strong, but I stand by those words. The problem that I see with this, and it is a problem with any incremental approach, is that it produces two very different interaction models for things that are approximately the same fundamental operation. That is, when I add the first video track to a session I perform one set of actions. Then, when I add subsequent tracks, it's different. This also has all the purported drawbacks of comment 22 with respect to usability, whatever they are. There must have been some because I got a lot of heat about that when we discussed it. > Do you think it is impossible to work toward a clean API in an incremental > approach? If you think it's possible, I'd like to hear your thoughts on > how. The fundamental problem in WebRTC is the Offer/Answer semantics in the API. That's hard to remove now. I can't see an incremental change that would remove that, and that's every bit as much of a problem as having to deal with SDP. That's how we got to comment 22. I know that you wanted to do some sort of object representation of SDP. That can be done incrementally by adding to RTCSessionDescription, or by replacing it entirely, but it doesn't really go to the core of the problem. If you were willing to tolerate the fact that there would be two code paths, two control surfaces that effectively did the same things. > By the way, these API additions would greatly minimize the amount of SDP > editing necessary for JS clients that don't use SDP for signalling. And > later incremental improvements could reduce it further. Also, it's no > longer necessary to do offer/answer for adding tracks. It's only the intial > PeerConnection setup that needs to do Offer/Answer. So, it doesn't inherit > all the problems quite as much as you described. It may be slightly > abominable, but I certainly consider it less abominable than the SDP editing > necessary without it. If I am forced to do SDP, I'd rather not have something else as well unless that something else is getting me something concrete. What you are proposing does too little to advance a cleaner API model to justify the extra overhead that it introduces. It doesn't tackle the hard problems. I appreciate the philosophy behind no-plan, which is not a non-plan in any sense. It addresses a concern that we (unfortunately) didn't really touch on in the MMUSIC call this morning. However, the requirements of the-not-no-plan could be far more elegantly addressed within the constraints of the current API without adding all those extra description bits. --Martin
- [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (adding… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Jim Barnett
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… José Luis Millán
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… José Luis Millán
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Jim Barnett
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Enrico Marocco
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Enrico Marocco
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Max Jonas Werner
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Roy, Radhika R CIV USARMY (US)
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (ad… Peter Thatcher