Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM discovery
Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com> Fri, 19 December 2014 16:58 UTC
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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 22:28:19 +0530
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From: Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com>
To: Benjamin Schwartz <bemasc@webrtc.org>
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM discovery
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Few cents .. I tend to agree with Cullen's sentiment since as a end user I don't want to end up with service provider lock-in when using a TURN server. Such lock-ins might not be a bad option but It need not be enforced by design. OTOH I am not sure how effective will be a typical not-so-technical end-user's decision making in choosing one turn server over the other. But having flexibility is not a bad idea , thus i feel the spec needs to just say the plausible options but mandating with MUST might not be what we need here. Cheers Suhas On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 8:55 PM, Benjamin Schwartz <bemasc@webrtc.org> wrote: > To reiterate, the TRAM draft doesn't specify what WebRTC should actually > do with the discovered TURN server(s). RETURN ( > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-schwartz-rtcweb-return/) attempts > to fill in the details, and also resolve questions about priority of > different settings, etc. > > Comments on the RETURN draft are appreciated, of couse. > > On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 5:15 AM, Hutton, Andrew <andrew.hutton@unify.com> > wrote: > >> +1 to Adam and Mo's comments which make a lot of sense to me. >> >> I agree we need to enable the use of TURN servers which provide the best >> user experience so enabling the use of TURN servers close to the clients >> makes sense. At the same time there are some security considerations which >> we can provide some guidance on so would it make sense to do the following? >> >> 1. Add a reference to draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery in >> -transports- and make it a SHOULD/MAY/MUST implement (I prefer MUST but I >> know others probably don't). >> >> 2. Add some text either inline or in the security considerations about >> the concerns and the need for user/app override. >> >> By the way I am not sure we need the app override if we consider >> draft-schwartz-rtcweb-return part of the solution. >> >> Andy >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) [mailto:mzanaty@cisco.com] >> > Sent: 18 December 2014 21:20 >> > To: Adam Roach; Cullen Jennings (fluffy); Hutton, Andrew >> > Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org >> > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM discovery >> > >> > The priority order that makes most sense to me is: >> > >> > 1. user override >> > 2. app override >> > 3. auto discovery >> > 4. app fallback >> > 5. user fallback >> > >> > If any override is configured by the user or app, do not perform auto >> > discovery, stop here. >> > >> > If auto discovery fails, use a fallback configured by the app or user. >> > >> > There is a big difference between an override and a fallback, so both >> > seem >> > necessary. >> > >> > Obviously, we need some mechanism for 3 as Adam said, in case it needs >> > to >> > be invoked. >> > >> > Mo >> > >> > On 12/18/14, 3:40 PM, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote: >> > >> > So, I think it's important that we have some way to encourage >> > deployment >> > of TURN servers both in the ISPs, and as part of firewalls (both >> > residential and enterprise). By putting TURN in paths that are already >> > going to bear the traffic in question, the overall cost associated with >> > calls goes down, and call quality (latency, loss) improves. >> > >> > I'm sympathetic to the position that we don't want to give these >> > entities specific hooks to force specific servers to be inserted into >> > the flow. We need to find a balance here: something that allows the >> > relevant entities to deploy and advertise such servers; something that >> > allows WebRTC applications to discover and use them; and something that >> > puts the ultimate decision in the hands of the users. Off the top of my >> > head, adding a browser API that allows applications to to retrieve >> > these servers and elect to use them if it wants to would serve part of >> > the purpose; giving users a means by which they can instruct the >> > browser >> > not to return such a list would serve the remainder. >> > >> > But that's all kind of orthogonal to the IETF issues: if we're going to >> > do *anything* in this space, we need the discovery mechanisms. >> > >> > /a >> > >> > On 12/18/14 11:23, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote: >> > > It seems that in the mobile case and many residential cases, doing >> > that >> > >draft would allow a service provider to force all the traffic through >> > a >> > >TURN server of the service providers choosing. Am I reading this >> > >correctly because I am pretty sure I would not be in favor of that. >> > > >> > > >> > >> On Dec 15, 2014, at 7:42 AM, Hutton, Andrew >> > <andrew.hutton@unify.com> >> > >>wrote: >> > >> >> > >> I am thinking that >> > >>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-07#section- >> > 3.4 >> > >>should include a requirement that a WebRTC Browser MUST support the >> > TURN >> > >>server discovery as described in >> > >>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-00. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> Andy >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> rtcweb mailing list >> > >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > rtcweb mailing list >> > > rtcweb@ietf.org >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > rtcweb mailing list >> > rtcweb@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > >
- [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM disc… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … Simon Perreault
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … 🔓Dan Wing
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … 🔓Dan Wing
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … Pal Martinsen (palmarti)
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … 🔓Dan Wing
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … Benjamin Schwartz
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … Suhas Nandakumar
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … Mark Nottingham
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] rtcweb-transports reference to TRAM … Hutton, Andrew