Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [Ice] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238
Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com> Fri, 12 October 2018 15:14 UTC
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From: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 08:13:43 -0700
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To: Justin Uberti <juberti=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: pthatcher=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org, mmusic@ietf.org, art@ietf.org, clue@ietf.org, ice@ietf.org, RTCWeb IETF <rtcweb@ietf.org>, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca>, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [Ice] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238
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On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 4:21 PM Justin Uberti <juberti= 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > I agree with Peter. Chrome's implementation is already closer to 8445 than > 5245, so I don't see any issues associated with snapping this cluster to > 8445 (aside from the work involved). > > On that topic, note that JSEP will need a few more changes than just the > addition of the 8445 reference and note; the examples will have to be > updated, as will the logic regarding generation of offers and answers and > their parsing (to deal with the new ice-option). These changes will be > modest but probably will need to be done by the authors. > > I've updated the references to 8445 (and to draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp) in this PR: https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/pull/851 I've also added the ice2 processing and added ice2 to the examples in the same PR. What did you mean by "and note"? Is there something more needed? > On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 9:52 PM Peter Thatcher <pthatcher= > 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > >> I'm late to the discussion, and reading through it, it seems that we have >> a lot of back and forth without addressing Cullen's root issue. Let me see >> if I understand Cullen's root issue correctly. I think it's something like: >> >> 1. Cisco has existing code that it wants to call "WebRTC 1.0 compliant" >> without changing to be compliant with 8445. >> >> 2. Cisco has existing code that it wants to continue to interoperate >> with endpoints, especially Chrome, even as they make changes to become 8445 >> compliant. And they don't want to have to test against old and new >> versions. >> >> Cullen, is that accurate? >> >> >> >> OK, so some of my thoughts: >> >> 1. I don't think there is any interop risk here at all related to >> timings. If you're worried about the drop in minimum check interval going >> from 20ms to 5ms, don't. Just because the spec allows for going that low >> doesn't mean endpoints will. And if they do, they'll do it carefully. >> Endpoints can and should still choose a value that works best regardless of >> the min in the spec. For example, Chrome is still using an interval of >> 48ms (we're not in a rush to lower it, but we have non-browser endpoints >> that do go lower). And if we roll out a lower value, it will be via >> experiments or opt-ins and carefully tracked to make sure connectivity >> rates don't drop. If any problem were found in practice, it would be >> quickly reverted. >> >> 2. I don't think there is any interop risk here related to nomination >> either. >> Chrome's default behavior has never been compliant to any spec anyway, >> and it's never been an issue. And like with ping intervals, any changes to >> implementations will be done slowly and carefully. >> >> 3. I don't think it really matters to major implementations what the >> dependency graph looks like. Whether some point to 5245 and others to 8445 >> or if all of them point to 8445, it doesn't matter, implementations will >> behave the same either way. Chrome, for example will adjust timings as >> works well in practice (perhaps someday to below 20ms interval) regardless >> of which RFCs point to 8445 and which point to 5245. If interop issues >> ever do come up, then they can be fixed. And that has nothing to do with >> which RFCs point to 5245 and which point to 8445. >> >> 5. You're going to need to test against different versions of different >> browser no matter what the RFC references are. ICE timings and nominations >> seem like the least of your testing problems. But on the flip side, Chrome >> (and I assume other browsers) have been very slow and careful when making >> changes to the ICE code. >> >> 6. FlexICE should go a long way to putting the web app in control of the >> ICE behavior. So if you are worried about what browsers will do with ICE, >> I suggest supporting the FlexICE effort. In fact, it's the result of your >> proposal at TPAC in 2017 for wanting to have lower-level of control of >> ICE... If we get that into all the browsers, you won't have to worry any >> more about any of this because you'll be in control (assuming you control >> the web app). >> > >> Altogether, I don't see any reason to not reference 8445 everywhere, at >> least not any related to interop risk and web browsers. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 9:37 AM Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote: >> >>> >>> On Sep 7, 2018, at 1:25 AM, Christer Holmberg < >>> christer.holmberg@ericsson..com <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>> wrote: >>> >>> > Cisco has implemented stuff that is WebRTC 1.0 compliant without this >>> change. These gratuitous changes, years after the implementation were >>> coded, with no real benefit will ensure that we are not >>> > and will not become compliant with the RFC. It's unlikely we will >>> upgrade to the new ICE until it has real befits. >>> >>> The main reason we did 8445 was because people had identified issues >>> with 5245. The work was driven mostly by the WebRTC community, including >>> yourself and the Chrome people (or, at least the Google people), and one of >>> the reason it took time to finalize 8445 was because you (among others) >>> wanted to make sure we get things right (by making network measurements >>> etc). Are you now saying all those changes bring no benefit? Did we all >>> waste our time? >>> >>> >>> Our testing, which we do not share, dig not indicate an improvement of >>> connectivity rates. I did not see results from others that did. Some of the >>> early test results from others that drove this work were not reproducible >>> in our testing. The one thing I think most people did find is that the more >>> out of sync the pacing of the two agents was, the worse the connectivity >>> was. But all of this is water under the bridge, we have old and new ice, >>> people can use either. What we are talking about here is what is the >>> minimum bar for WebRTC 1.0 >>> >>> >>> > It is doubtful Justin will want to implement the 8445 mechanisms of >>> supporting both new and old ICE. Instead, we will move to say "works >>> with Browser X version Y or later." We have watched at W3C as it moved to >>> be that unless chrome does it, it rare that it becomes a standard. >>> > Right here I am watching how the stuff IETF defines will be less >>> relevant than the issue of what chrome implements. >>> >>> What exactly would Justin have to change? >>> >>> >>> >>> For us, the largest part is having to test for both old and new - it’s >>> not easy to do good automated testing for ICE. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> mmusic mailing list >>> mmusic@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >>> >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Ice mailing list >> Ice@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice >> > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >
- Re: [rtcweb] [Ice] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Christer Holmberg
- [rtcweb] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] [art] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: [rtcweb] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Roni Even (A)
- Re: [rtcweb] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Clust… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Clust… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Clust… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, … Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Clust… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Clust… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] [Ice] [MMUSIC] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, … Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] [Ice] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and… Nils Ohlmeier
- Re: [rtcweb] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Nils Ohlmeier
- Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cl… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] [Ice] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, … Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] [Ice] [MMUSIC] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [Ice] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [Ice] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [Ice] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE… Heather Flanagan
- Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [Ice] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [Ice] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [Ice] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [clue] [Ice] [art] ICE, ICE… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] [clue] [MMUSIC] [Ice] [art] ICE, ICE… Christer Holmberg