Re: [rtcweb] JS friendly codec compromise?

Zach Lym <zachlym@indolering.com> Tue, 01 April 2014 23:16 UTC

Return-Path: <indolering@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 223F51A0004 for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 16:16:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6CLXTH1EmH4i for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 16:16:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pb0-x233.google.com (mail-pb0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFBE91A0002 for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 16:16:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pb0-f51.google.com with SMTP id uo5so10618497pbc.10 for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Tue, 01 Apr 2014 16:16:36 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:message-id:date:from:reply-to:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=RPfsTGtMDjq2zkkFe38TNg7eRw1JxT2dtR2KDpNpDMk=; b=E8H4ylnMArpc6XIaICegcdeKXB0miobPfVnhxoPeghqQYuOGtV7WdqLT807ZkdOirE YF8NxZxJGskfXBtafK7S1hnfimxdlzKya6+NBu9amWFjFff/eM9pzUTVvmtRRKBgiqCB sHzEwbyJf3CBOCB9EfwpzUN92hRhBBhHo3Eo6/z0HsKzxX/db6wX57r+B8dkTIWtrFDY YZOfHSwnpCvBzGHPUdEgXlEf4lULjMa7iqqUNJcTnnuqjYDBJ5oWSqlb4vBV3m0C8CXN xavB5x1G/jwbrrWvkULzkP4x0lCeBjNXqBFWRn09y52zCmWuXFXXACLgyWmZ5DKwDOh8 p17Q==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=indolering.com; s=google; h=sender:message-id:date:from:reply-to:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=RPfsTGtMDjq2zkkFe38TNg7eRw1JxT2dtR2KDpNpDMk=; b=Mj1nCrcv1N3EzpKsD4VaxoBjmmWiX6Hf3ac4wHy9OpMCpTcLy3C6GDvcDck7y+Npgj /reoVtE1AYNy8UEgyrFDh7esea3r7Apeb+78V3dL37kvduqsVcj/y1V0C/r1Ms626roI z4lSr2vvneHvLPjF6dXFA1KczGGAoLTKZ40KI=
X-Received: by 10.67.1.202 with SMTP id bi10mr34152176pad.68.1396394196401; Tue, 01 Apr 2014 16:16:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mba-4.local (71-212-116-249.tukw.qwest.net. [71.212.116.249]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id qw8sm152368pbb.27.2014.04.01.16.16.33 for <rtcweb@ietf.org> (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 01 Apr 2014 16:16:33 -0700 (PDT)
Sender: Zach Lym <indolering@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <533B48CF.1030705@indolering.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 16:16:31 -0700
From: Zach Lym <zachlym@indolering.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: rtcweb@ietf.org
References: <CABWuLVey==ZNYog1iLkWiy3Ec6JkOASDPkjg-7BLLenvxf4q+w@mail.gmail.com> <j2fmj9tvssjfl8qa93q5t7to812vmjhjhh@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de>
In-Reply-To: <j2fmj9tvssjfl8qa93q5t7to812vmjhjhh@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de>
X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha512"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="AIQgFMTQC1FXcCOcJrLO7LeXLFvCQV1B9"
Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/k8blt50lLM3Y1cYwlc_pV_balZU
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JS friendly codec compromise?
X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
Reply-To: zachlym@indolering.com
List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list <rtcweb.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/>
List-Post: <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 23:16:43 -0000

> Which aspect of "performance" do you mean here, and could you share some
> references to support the claim? References to a legal analysis would be
> helpful aswell.

ORBX claims performance on par with H.264.  We all know that's probably
marketing hype, but it's hard to imagine not being able to outperform
H.261.  Even if the working group chose to hack together a custom codec
which is worse than H.261, an upgradeable client means we can update the
spec as performance improvements are made by the browser vendors.

I know of no formal legal analysis of ORBX, but being able to update the
decoder means that any submarine patent would have to knock out every
known video encoding technique.  Software patents are generally simple
to work around, codecs may be more so but Google's due-diligence team
thought that VP8 managed to pull it off.  They paid shut-up money to
make the FUD go away but if you are really that concerned about
potential patents we could partner with Daala.  Mozilla was smart with
Opus and patented their "new methods" so they could force
cross-licensing deals with the trolls.  They are doing the same with
Daala, so the FUD around a submarine threat  against Daala is no better
or worse than with H.264.  I don't know how well Daala's encoding could
be adapted to WebCL, but we could include some patented methods of the
codec.

Come to think of it, the Daala group is looking to recreate the
development process they had for Opus.  Skype and Mumble, both VOIP
clients, were able to push updates to client software silently,
providing the Opus team with a live test-bed which they used to
benchmark their various tweaks.  They are also actively seeking "killer
features" for the codec.  H.26X designed to compress movies, not
low-motion talking heads and screencasts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3Yc5Hn9bhQ