Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated...If not now, when"
Silvia Pfeiffer <silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com> Thu, 14 November 2013 00:04 UTC
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From: Silvia Pfeiffer <silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 08:04:11 +0800
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To: John Leslie <john@jlc.net>
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated...If not now, when"
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On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 12:55 AM, John Leslie <john@jlc.net> wrote: > Mike Linksvayer <ml@gondwanaland.com> wrote: >> >> I strongly support VP8 for MTI, and oppose H.264. Undecided on which >> of both, either, or neither would be second best. > > I'm _very_ glad you care which is "second best!" > > I went into last week's session quite prepared to accept either, both > or neither. I came out unwilling to support _either_ as MTI. > > This is mostly because I came to understand the "cisco" postition. > > (Please excuse me for assigning names to the two main positions, but > it will make the discussion _much_ simpler.) > > The "cisco" position is: > > - look at all the H.264 hardware out there: we must make use of it; > - if VP8 is MTI, we'll get sued and our customers will get hassled. > > The "linux" position is: > > - look at all the VP8 software out there: we must make use of it; > - if H.264 is MTI, we'll get sued and our customers will get hassled. > > And, alas, they're both right. > > What I didn't understand before the presentations was why Cisco > believes they'll get sued over VP8, but not H.264. > > Basically H.264 has quite a consortium to slap down the likes of > Nokia in court should they sue anyone in the consortium. This greatly > reduces the chance of Nokia's lawyer suing. What makes you think that? I am not aware of a requirement on MPEG-LA to get involved in any lawsuit that involves a company suing somebody over a patent that is part of the H.264 pool. On the contrary: if you get sued over VP8, you will likely find that Google has an interest to support you. Silvia. > But this consortium won't lift a finger if Nokia sues Cisco over > VP8. Cisco is a _very_ attractive target over VP8. > > Thus, Cisco management would _very_much_ prefer that VP8 _not_ be > MTI. They probably won't implement it. > > Conversely, of course, "linux" management would _very_much_ prefer > that H.264 not be MTI. They probably won't implement it. > > Understanding this, I now strongly recommend against making either > H.264 or VP8 MTI. (And I will not consent to a RFC 3929 process limited > to choosing between them.) > > This issue has dragged on long enough already. We need to start > reading the riot act to the folks who claim we "need" either of these > as MTI in order to have "satisfied" users. > > Both H.264 and VP8 deserve "SHOULD implement" status. Neither, > IMHO, will achieve consensus for "MUST implement" status. Yes, this > is a sorry state to find ourselves in. But the marketplace has > sorted out much worse problems in my memory. > > And I claim that both camps are actually more likely to implement > (or allow extensions for) the other side's codec if it is _not_ MTI, > simply because they can back out at the first sign of lawyers. > > I will not go into any details about how VP8 endpoints might talk > to H.264 endpoints, but I'm _very_ confident ways will be found if > we actually _publish_ an RFC saying both are "SHOULD implement". > > (Surely I'm not the _only_ person who'd like to see _both_ H.264 > and VP8 legacy devices using our standard...) > > -- > John Leslie <john@jlc.net> > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
- [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated...If… Mike Linksvayer
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… David Singer
- [rtcweb] where that h264 plugin can be used Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… John Leslie
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] where that h264 plugin can be used Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Kaiduan Xie
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Michael Thornburgh
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Philipp Hancke
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Philipp Hancke
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Jonathan Rosenberg
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Gili
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Maik Merten
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Göran Eriksson AP
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Leon Geyser
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Gili
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… John Leslie
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… John Leslie
- Re: [rtcweb] where that h264 plugin can be used Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Marco Stura
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] ~"I'd love it if patents evaporated.… Kaiduan Xie