Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec?
Barry Dingle <btdingle@gmail.com> Mon, 20 October 2014 08:53 UTC
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From: Barry Dingle <btdingle@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 19:52:38 +1100
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To: "Cavigioli, Chris" <chris.cavigioli@intel.com>
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec?
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Chris, So you are saying that we should NOT have 'unqualified' MTI Audio and Video codecs. Rather, we should have 2 (or more) Network Scenarios and have Audio+Video MTI's for Each Network Scenario. Browsers that wish to support multiple Network Scenarios will support the MTI's for those Scenarios. Special Browsers - or a sub-set of a Browser - MAY support only specific Network Scenarios and their MTIs. This seems to make a lot of sense. Cheers, Barry Dingle Fixed - +61(0)3-9725-3937 Mob - +61(0)41-911-7578 Fellow of University of Melbourne, Australia On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 6:09 PM, Cavigioli, Chris <chris.cavigioli@intel.com > wrote: > No, not 2 discussions … but 2 MTI codecs. > > Given: > > - Industry is polarized c. 40% VP8 vs. c. 40% H.264 > > - Unlikely this will change > > - Every single mobile device (100%) of the billions out there > running a mobile OS (iOS, Android, Windows, BB OS, etc) will already > support H.264, AMR-xx since those are MTI for 3GPP and for the OS > > Then: > > - Why not support both: VP8, Opus = web; H.264, AMR/AMR-WB = LTE > > - Every single mobile device and OS already deals with H.264+AMR > licensing for many years. > > - Being royalty free, incrementally adding VP8 and Opus shouldn’t > be a major additional impact > > -chris > > > > *From:* Justin Uberti [mailto:juberti@google.com] > *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:52 PM > *To:* Cavigioli, Chris > *Cc:* Harald Alvestrand; Bernard Aboba; rtcweb@ietf.org > > *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? > > > > Looks like someone wants to have not just one, but two MTI codec > discussions... > > > > On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 6:20 PM, Cavigioli, Chris < > chris.cavigioli@intel.com> wrote: > > Harald said: > > “We made the mistake of having an MTI discussion previously with not > enough details on that subject…” > > > > We didn’t have quantitative data earlier for a data-driven decision. > Future Web – LTE interop is important. A group of us in GSMA have been > looking at WebRTC interop with LTE (where 3GPP / GSMA defined IMS-based > voice/video/messaging), specifically looking at user experience impact of > latency introduced by added in-network transcoding. GSMA has approved the > whitepaper and it is being prepared for public distribution. > > > > WebRTC – LTE transcoding is now MANDATORY because of “WebRTC Audio Codec > and Processing Requirements”. > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05, where MTI audio > codecs in WebRTC and in LTE are dissimilar. Thus, REGARDLESS of the video > codecs, there is already a significant degradation imposed on Web – LTE > links if only MTI codecs are used. The only systems to avoid this are > those which implement OPTIONAL audio codecs to be transcoder-free with > LTE. The same can apply for video codecs. > > > > The GSMA whitepaper refers to: > > 1. Quantitative voice-over-LTE (VoLTE) delay limits were agreed-to by > 3GPP SA4 in August 2014. To paraphrase, performance objectives for maximum > VoLTE device delays in error and jitter free conditions and AMR speech > codec operation, the sum of the UE delays in sending and receiving > directions (TS + TR) should be ≤ 150ms. If this performance objective > cannot be met, the sum of the UE delays in sending and receiving directions > (TS + TR) shall in any case be ≤ 190ms. > > 2. OPUS – AMR transcoding adds an additional 211.5 ms > implementation-agnostic (TS + TR) delay, including 40 ms for jitter > buffer and 40 ms for discontinuous reception (DRX). > > 3. To put these numbers in perspective, it is in general desirable to > minimize UE delays to ensure low enough end-to-end delays and hence a good > conversational experience. Increasing delay causes people to double-talk > making conversations increasingly frustrating. Guidance to stay below 400 > ms maximum one-way delay is found in ITU-T Recommendation G.114 and the > computational E-model is in ITU-T Recommendation G.107. > > > > This is a complex topic with many network factors in play. LTE operators > in 3GPP seek UE delays (TS + TR) around 150 ms. Adding OPUS – AMR > transcoding in the network imposes an additional 211.5 ms on top of that, > just for audio. Optionally using AMR in WebRTC, those 211.5 ms can be > eliminated, delivering a superior end-user experience. > > > > CONCLUSION: regardless of MTI codec choices in WebRTC, to provide a good > WebRTC – LTE interop experience, emerging WebRTC systems must accommodate > MTI codecs already deployed in the LTE domain and in mobile operating > systems, namely AMR/AMR-WB and H.264. > > > > POSITION: To be clear, several Intel SoCs launched at MWC this year for > smartphones and tablets support both VP8 and H.264 hardware encode and > decode – so Intel is codec-neutral in this MTI debate. Additionally, Intel > has high-performance solutions for transcoding. However, we wish to inform > the industry, with quantitative data, about impact to end-user experience > of mandating such transcoding so IETF can make a data-driven decision on > video codecs as well as reflect on the impact of already having mandated > transcoding on the audio side. > > > > Chris Cavigioli > > Intel Corp, System Architecture and Planning, Video/Multimedia, Mobile > and Communications Group (MCG) > > +1 (415) 254-4545 mobile > > +1 (408) 653-8348 desk > > +1 (408) 884-2400 fax > > This e-mail may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole > use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution by others is > strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact > the sender and delete all copies. > > > > *From:* rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Bernard > Aboba > *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 2:29 PM > *To:* Harald Alvestrand > *Cc:* rtcweb@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? > > > > Harald said: > > > > "Bernard, > > > I think this is, to a large degree, codec independent. > > We have demonstrated interoperability on VP8 between Firefox and Chrome, > and usage of various mechanisms for congestion control and repair of packet > loss being applied in live services. > > So it can't be all bad....." > > > > [BA] I agree that the lack of interoperability is largely "codec > independent": that is, implementations based on different mechanisms for > congestion control, repair, etc. will exhibit interoperability problems, > regardless of the codec chosen. The real test for RTCWEB will be to move > beyond "interoperability of implementations sharing source code" to > "interoperability of independent implementations, based on open standards". > > > > > On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 1:38 PM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> > wrote: > > On 10/19/2014 05:43 PM, Bernard Aboba wrote: > > "And its one of the issues holding up wider adoption of the technology" > > > > [BA] Specifying an MTI encoder/decoder is not sufficient for > interoperability. It is also necessary to specify the transport in enough > detail to allow independent implementations that interoperate well enough > to be usable in a wide variety of scenarios, including wireless networks > where loss is commonly experienced. > > > Bernard, > > I think this is, to a large degree, codec independent. > > We have demonstrated interoperability on VP8 between Firefox and Chrome, > and usage of various mechanisms for congestion control and repair of packet > loss being applied in live services. > > So it can't be all bad..... > > > > > > We made the mistake of having an MTI discussion previously with not enough > details on that subject, particularly with respect to H.264. > draft-ietf-rtcweb-video sections 4.2 - 4.4 remain sketchy at best. > > > > So if we are to have the discussion again, it should occur in the context > of detailed specifications and interoperability reports. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 8:14 AM, Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@jdrosen.net> > wrote: > > I'm in favor of taking another run at this. > > > > The working group has repeatedly said that an MTI codec is something we > need to produce. And its one of the issues holding up wider adoption of the > technology (not the only one for sure). > > > > And things have changed since the last meeting, a year ago now (November > in Vancouver). Cisco's open264 plugin shipped and now just recently is > integrated into Firefox. iOS8 shipped with APIs for H264. There are other > things worth noting. Will this change the minds of everyone? Surely not. > Will it sway enough for us to achieve rough consensus? Maybe. IMHO - worth > finding out. > > > > On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 5:08 PM, Alexandre GOUAILLARD < > agouaillard@gmail.com> wrote: > > +1 to not having MTI codec discussion unless some progress has been made > on VP8 at MPEG. Any news on that? I'm sharing harald's feeling that there > was no change on the members position. > > > > On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 9:22 PM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> > wrote: > > On 10/17/2014 12:02 AM, Bernard Aboba wrote: > > One thing we could do instead of wasting time on MTI is to actually make > progress on Sections 4.2 - 4.4 of draft-IETF-RTCWEB-video, so we could > actually interoperate regardless of the codec. > > > The big argument for an MTI is actually the one stated in -overview: It > guards against interoperability failure. > > I would like to have an ecosystem where one can field a box, connect it to > everything else, and run well for *some* level of "well" - and I would > prefer that ecosystem to be one where it's possible to field the box > without making prior arrangements with anyone about licenses. > > This argument hasn't changed one whit since last time we discussed it. And > I don't see much movement on the specifics of the proposals either. > > We'll have to interoperate well with the codecs we field. So using some > time to discuss draft-ietf-rtcweb-video seems to make sense. (And 4.1 isn't > finished either. There's one sentence that needs to be removed.) > > I wouldn't say I'd be happy to not discuss this in Honolulu. But I'd > prefer to re-discuss based on the knowledge that some significant players > have actually changed their minds. > > At the moment, I don't see signs that any of the poll respondents have > said "I have changed my mind". > > Harald > > > > > > On Oct 16, 2014, at 2:28 PM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> > wrote: > > On 16 October 2014 14:17, Matthew Kaufman <matthew@matthew.at> wrote: > And that's because something substantive has changed, or simply because > wasting the WG time on this again is more entertaining than actually > finishing a specification that can be independently implemented by all > browser vendors? (A specification that we are nowhere near having, as far > as > I can tell) > > Personally, I've found the reprieve from this fight refreshing. And > it would appear that we've made some real progress as a result. I'd > suggest that if we don't have new information, we continue to spend > our time productively. If we can't find topics to occupy our meeting > agenda time, then maybe we can free an agenda slot. > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > > > -- > > Alex. Gouaillard, PhD, PhD, MBA > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > CTO - Temasys Communications, S'pore / Mountain View > > President - CoSMo Software, Cambridge, MA > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > sg.linkedin.com/agouaillard > > · > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > > > -- > > Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D. > jdrosen@jdrosen.net > http://www.jdrosen.net > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rtcweb mailing list > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > -- > > Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > >
- [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Victor Pascual Avila
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Victor Pascual Avila
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Cavigioli, Chris
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Makaraju, Maridi Raju (Raju)
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Alexandre GOUAILLARD
- [rtcweb] VP8 in ISO (Re: Plan for MTI video codec… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 in ISO (Re: Plan for MTI video c… Alexandre GOUAILLARD
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Jonathan Rosenberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Alexandre GOUAILLARD
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Watson Ladd
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Jeremy Laurenson (jlaurens)
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Jonathan Rosenberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Alexandre GOUAILLARD
- [rtcweb] Scheduling a separate slot for MTI VC Di… Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Cavigioli, Chris
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Ca By
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Victor Pascual
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Cavigioli, Chris
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Barry Dingle
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Andrew Allen
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Barry Dingle
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Victor Pascual
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Mohammed Raad
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Cavigioli, Chris
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Leon Geyser
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Cavigioli, Chris
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Florian Weimer
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? markus.isomaki
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? markus.isomaki
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Mohammed Raad
- Re: [rtcweb] Plan for MTI video codec? Ron