Re: [rtcweb] Voting method choice (Re: Proposed Video Selection Process)
"Parthasarathi R" <partha@parthasarathi.co.in> Mon, 25 November 2013 18:23 UTC
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From: Parthasarathi R <partha@parthasarathi.co.in>
To: 'Hervé' <h_o_w_@hotmail.com>, 'Harald Alvestrand' <harald@alvestrand.no>, rtcweb@ietf.org
References: <528E39F4.4010706@ericsson.com> <528E5AF7.5080403@alvestrand.no>, <52922ED3.7070908@alvestrand.no>, <002d01cee949$51a4c3c0$f4ee4b40$@co.in> <DUB127-W90308439B7901571CF198E0E20@phx.gbl>
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 23:53:11 +0530
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Voting method choice (Re: Proposed Video Selection Process)
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Please read inline. > -----Original Message----- > From: Hervé [mailto:h_o_w_@hotmail.com] > Sent: Monday, November 25, 2013 4:25 AM > To: Parthasarathi R; 'Harald Alvestrand'; rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [rtcweb] Voting method choice (Re: Proposed Video > Selection Process) > > ---------------------------------------- > > From: partha@parthasarathi.co.in > > > IMO, The fundamental problem with these methods (Condorcet & IRV) is > that > > they are designed to find the winner out of the discrete candidates > (A, B, > > C) in mind whereas the candidates in this voting is of combination of > > discrete and set nature (A, B, (A & B), (A | B)). I like to see the > proof > > whether the above methods (Condorcet & IRV) are really designed to > bring the > > correct winner in these set of candidates as well. > > > > I can show how your example of Condorcet fail with (A|B) is as > follows: The > > candidates are A,B, (A|B) > > > > A: Codec A > > B: Codec B > > A|B: At least one of Codec A and B > > > > If the distribution is like this: > > > > A proponents (40%): A A|B > > B proponents (40%): B A|B > > Compromisers group 1 (5%): A|B A > > Compromisers group 2 (15%): A|B B > > > > Then under IRV, the first round will go 40/40/20, alternative A|B > will be > > eliminated, and B will be chosen with 55 as A has 45 only in the > second > > round. > > > > Under Condorcet, the outcomes will be: > > > > - A outranks B on 55% > > - B outranks A on 45% > > I think your commentary below agrees that you swapped the numbers > there. > > > > - A|B outranks A on 60% > > - A|B outranks B on 60% > > > > Therefore, A|B is a Condorcet winner and election is successful. In > reality, > > the original winner is B and compromisers group 2 which is interested > only > > in implementing B which has 55% supporter. Also, A and Compromisers > group 1 > > is interested only in implementing A which is 45%. So, Condorcet > winner is > > not required to be correct in case A|B, A&B candidates exists in the > > election. > > What would you say is the correct winner? > <Partha> In the given example, B is actual winner as it will results in 55% implementation. As I explained in Harald mail thread, it is not coming out by Condorcet mechanism. </Partha> > One that avoids negotiation failure completely? A|B does not do that. > (But might reduce the chance a little compared to no MTI.) > <Partha> Agreed </Partha> > One that the most people find acceptable? A|B is that. <Partha> If your statement is true, there should be rough consensus for A|B before taking voting (alternative) process. Currently, the proposed video selection process is going for vote and then asking for regular rough consensus mechanism for A|B if vote (alternative) fail </Partha> > The voters in the condorcet hypothetical all get their wish and can > comply with rtcweb without implementing the codec they do not want. > > > From the examples I've seen, I think condorcet would be preferable to > IRV. > > There is the argument 'The IETF does not vote' to contend with. I don't > know about that. I think VP8 as the only MTI or H.264 as the only MTI > is unlikely to find consensus, but I also agree that the "or could live > with" crowd might have been masked during the meeting. <Partha> It should come out through the rough consensus </Partha> > I think it's good to look into some alternative proposals and would be > good to see which are least objectionable. And a vote could be just the > tool to do that. > Is consensus not an acceptable resolution, if not the favourite? and > condorcet seems like a method to find it. > > Another tool, a list of pros and cons, > https://etherpad.mozilla.org/RSbHIuSOgn . > <Partha> Good information. I agree with the information which exists as of now </Partha> > > > Having said that, I agree with you that IVR is also not required to > yield > > correct election result in case A&B, A|B candidates exists. > > > > As of now as I mentioned in > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg10113.html, > the > > election result may leads to the situation of "the operation was a > success > > but the patient died". Please let me know your opinion on the same. > > > - Hervé =
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Stefan Slivinski
- [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Peter Dunkley
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Jeremy Laurenson (jlaurens)
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Peter Dunkley
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Adam Roach
- [rtcweb] Voting method choice (Re: Proposed Video… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Philipp Hancke
- Re: [rtcweb] Voting method choice (Re: Proposed V… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Peter Dunkley
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Voting method choice (Re: Proposed V… Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Peter Dunkley
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Lorenzo Miniero
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process John Leslie
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Leon Geyser
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Matt Fredrickson
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Maik Merten
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Daniel-Constantin Mierla
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Maik Merten
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Maik Merten
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Enrico Marocco
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Leon Geyser
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Leon Geyser
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Matt Fredrickson
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Jack Moffitt
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Ron
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Lorenzo Miniero
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Matt Fredrickson
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Maik Merten
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Steve Donovan
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process John Leslie
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Steve Donovan
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Ashish V. Thapliyal
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process tim panton
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process bryandonnovan
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Maik Merten
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Matt Fredrickson
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Paul Giralt
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] Voting method choice (Re: Proposed V… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Maik Merten
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Adam Roach
- [rtcweb] IETF will fail to implement Video codec … Parthasarathi R
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Stefan Slivinski
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Maik Merten
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Marc Abrams
- Re: [rtcweb] Voting method choice (Re: Proposed V… Parthasarathi R
- Re: [rtcweb] IETF will fail to implement Video co… Parthasarathi R
- Re: [rtcweb] Voting method choice (Re: Proposed V… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Voting method choice (Re: Proposed V… Parthasarathi R
- Re: [rtcweb] Voting method choice (Re: Proposed V… Parthasarathi R
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Proposed Video Selection Process Cullen Jennings (fluffy)