Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue
"Karl Stahl" <karl.stahl@intertex.se> Sat, 26 October 2013 15:04 UTC
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From: Karl Stahl <karl.stahl@intertex.se>
To: "'Cullen Jennings (fluffy)'" <fluffy@cisco.com>, "'cb.list6'" <cb.list6@gmail.com>, 'Harald Alvestrand' <harald@alvestrand.no>, 'Justin Uberti' <juberti@google.com>
References: <52681A96.2020904@alvestrand.no> <526826AF.5030308@librevideo.org> <52690090.2050609@alvestrand.no> <BBE9739C2C302046BD34B42713A1E2A22DFCD683@ESESSMB105.ericsson.se> <AE1A6B5FD507DC4FB3C5166F3A05A4843D45DC08@TK5EX14MBXC266.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <5269764C.4030801@librevideo.org> <52698758.5040404@bbs.darktech.org> <CAD6AjGSb5syh0HO+89fH8cGZ0zqM6gYLPj3aeTRQLN0u8W4cSg@mail.gmail.com> <5269F098.2020904@alvestrand.no> <CAD6AjGQTSeVYjP0V--sbbMUYvTJuzqqh3r+K-pwve7KkS4dSgg@mail.gmail.com> <C5E08FE080ACFD4DAE31E4BDBF944EB123CDD2CE@xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com>
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Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 17:04:10 +0200
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Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue
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Has a Video Codec Plug-in Slot been considered or discussed? Wouldn't specifying such codec slots and making them mandatory for WebRTC make (almost) everyone happy? For service providers having invested in H.264 gear (e.g. IMS/RCS) or PBX/UC vendor's video-solutions, they could offer their users the royalty-bearing codec as a plug-in (they are used to supplying these codecs in current clients), when they wish to use the WebRTC browser as a soft client for their services. That is their need, and most of them certainly understand that a royalty-bearing codec cannot be made mandatory in free web browsers (How could it? IETF cannot ban free web browsers and will not pay the royalties...). We (Ingate/Intertex SBCs) get requests for transcoding VP8<->H.264 in network gateways. Others have already announced such. That would really be ugly - a technically bad and resource consuming, quality degenerating solution, that by definition also breaks the end-to-end privacy idea behind WebRTC. Let's only have codecs in the endpoints - Make codec slots MTI! Few really expect the H.264 can be MTI. For the WebRTC browser itself, any mandating must be royalty free if it should go into the web browser we know, mustn't it? Having MTI codec slots will be great if we cannot reach consensus around VP8 (e.g. because of Nokia pouring some 67 patent numbers into an IPR declaration, refusing to submit what their infringed innovation may be https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2035/). It is not hard to guess that Google then will offer free VP8 plug-ins to any WebRTC browser when using their search engine, especially Microsoft and Apple users'... Then we get the video compatibility. And the MPEG-group can be happy about a new efficient distribution channel for their H.264 codecs, via service providers and PBX/UC vendors offering such plug-ins to their users. Maybe I should be sad, being deprived of the opportunity to build massive H.264/VP8 transcoding gateways into the network... /Karl -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Från: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] För Cullen Jennings (fluffy) Skickat: den 26 oktober 2013 06:41 Till: cb.list6 Kopia: rtcweb@ietf.org Ämne: Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue On Oct 25, 2013, at 10:35 AM, cb.list6 <cb.list6@gmail.com> wrote: > I am happy to present the salient points in Vancouver if asked to. Hi, I just want to explain why chairs are not likely to allocate agenda time for this at IETF88. I have not discussed this my co-chairs so this is certainly not a chair decision but instead my guess of some items that would come up 1) we clearly asked for any proposals that wanted agenda time to be in in the form of a draft by Oct 6. I think we would view this as another proposal. 2) the WG has previous agreed they don't want interoperability failures. This would not get us there. (Yes, I do realize the WG might fail at that goal but the current plan is to try not to fail) 3) The agenda looks really full to me. ( The chairs will be thrilled if we turn out to be wrong on that and we can cover the stuff on the agenda and move on to other things ) But here's the really important thing - getting to consensus on an MTI would be better than no MTI. And we have never asked the question. Let me say that again - this WG has never had a consensus call on which codec should be the MTI one. We agreed to do that and if it fails to reach consensus, then, as the WG has discussed before, we can move on to discussing what to do next. I really don't want to start another long thread on why we are spending time on this topic at all but I did think your email deserved a response. Cullen _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Monty Montgomery
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Silvia Pfeiffer
- [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Bo Burman
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Bo Burman
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Bo Burman
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Basil Mohamed Gohar
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue cb.list6
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Lorenzo Miniero
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Leon Geyser
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Jeremy Laurenson (jlaurens)
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue cb.list6
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue cb.list6
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Monty Montgomery
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Jeremy Laurenson (jlaurens)
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue tim panton
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Leon Geyser
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Victor Pascual Avila
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue David Singer
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Monty Montgomery
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Jack Moffitt
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Jeremy Laurenson (jlaurens)
- Re: [rtcweb] VP8 vs H.264 - the core issue Basil Mohamed Gohar