Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision
Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> Fri, 20 December 2013 08:34 UTC
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Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 09:34:49 +0100
From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
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To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>, rai-ads@tools.ietf.org, tsv-ads@tools.ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision
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On 2013-12-20 09:20, Harald Alvestrand wrote: > Thank you, this resolves my practical issues, and the acknowledgement of > the communication & transparency issues seems adequate to help prevent a > repeat of this stall. > > I'll also take this as instructions to the group to replace all > references to -rtcweb-qos with referenes to draft-dsheikan (or its > successors). Yes, as this is the document we currently have. If the WG sees a need for a document that has another scope, then I believe each author and the WG will need to consider which of the document is the appropriate one to reference in their contexts. Merry Christmas Magnus Westerlund > > On 12/19/2013 05:12 PM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >> Harald, WG, >> >> We apologize for the failure to inform and keep the WG aware of the >> discussion and TSV ADs request to move draft-ietf-rtcweb-qos with it's >> then content to TSVWG. A request chairs and authors accepted in the end >> more than a year ago. This is clearly a failure by us chairs to ensure >> sufficient transparency and a venue to timely protest that decision. >> >> After reviewing this with TSVWG chairs, the non-recused RTCWEB chairs >> (Magnus and Ted) do believe that the DSCP aspects require TSVWG action, >> and that draft-dhesikan belongs there as a result. If there are aspects >> of the QoS approach that are outside draft-dsheikan's current remit, >> those might still belong in RTCWEB. We might also be able to pull some >> pieces out of draft-dhesikan for local progress, but we can't take the >> full document as it stands. Thus nothing prevents the WG from creating a >> new QoS related WG document assuming a different scope than the previous >> document. If any WG participants see a need for such a document they are >> welcome to submit an individual document as a proposal for such a WG >> document. >> >> We note you protesting the lack of progress of draft-dhesikan in TSVWG, >> and state that as one reason why this document should be in RTCWEB WG. >> After reviewing mailing list discussion, meeting minutes and talking to >> the TSVWG chairs, it appears that the main reason it hasn't been making >> more progress have been the lack of an draft update to resolve the issue >> raised in the Berlin TSVWG meeting. We have good hopes that the document >> can make fair progress in TSVWG assuming author and RTCWEB participants >> make timely contributions to the document. >> >> Harald, does this provide a clear enough way forward or, do you wish to >> continue your appeal? >> >> Best Regards >> >> Magnus Westerlund >> Ted Hardie >> >> >> >> >> >> On 2013-11-13 21:21, Harald Alvestrand wrote: >>> This mail concerns both administrative and technical issues, which is >>> why it is explicitly copied to the ADs of RAI and TSV. I hope I have >>> managed to keep them separate in the message. >>> >>> Magnus said in an email yesterday, concerning draft-ietf-rtcweb-qos: >>> >>>> Okay, we might not have been public enough on this. It was requested by >>>> the Transport ADs quite some time ago that doing the QoS document in >>>> our >>>> WG was not appropriate and requested us to direct the document to >>>> TSVWG. >>>> Which was done, and where it hasn't made progress. >>>> >>>> You might have noted that James Polk did comment in the milestone part >>>> in the monday session of IETF88 about our QoS milestone should be >>>> killed. >>> I want to protest this - both practically and formally. >>> >>> To get the formal stuff out of the way first: >>> >>> Changing the deliverables of the working group *without telling the >>> working group* is totally inappropriate in an open, consensus-driven >>> process. >>> Changing the deliverables of the working group *without telling the >>> working group why* and *without allowing those reasons to be debated* is >>> totally inappropriate in an open, consensus-driven process. >>> >>> I protest against this action. >>> >>> ACTION REQUEST 1: I request that this decision be declared null and >>> void, and that the relevant ADs send out a message to RTCWEB (and TSVWG >>> if appropriate) *PROPOSING* such an action, and giving a reasonable >>> timeline for when they will make a decision based on mailing list >>> feedback. >>> >>> In practice: >>> >>> The draft as it existed before its untimely demise consisted of two >>> things: >>> >>> - A description of how QoS mechanisms could be useful in the RTCWEB >>> use case >>> - A description of existing mechanisms that could be appropriate for the >>> RTCWEB use case >>> >>> The first one is clearly something that needs RTCWEB consensus. It seems >>> to have no need for, nor likelyhood of gathering interest enough for, a >>> TSVWG consensus. >>> >>> There could be some argument that the second part needs TSVWG consensus, >>> especially if it was redefining any mechanisms, or it was making choices >>> between mechanisms where TSVWG had strong opinions about which >>> mechanisms should be chosen, but had not chosen to document that in any >>> document on which IETF consensus had been declared (that is to say, >>> existing RFCs). >>> >>> My archive shows 36 messages where the title refers to this draft. It >>> shows no messages declaring that feedback has been incorporated and >>> calling for new review - something that is usually necessary to get a WG >>> consensus on any document. The debate hasn't been conclusive, but then, >>> it hasn't been pushed hard either. >>> >>> The people who know how RTCWEB works are in this working group. Some of >>> them may be in TSV, but I think the locus of knowledge for saying what >>> QoS mechanisms are appropriate for RTCWEB are here, not in TSV. >>> >>> This results in my second request. >>> >>> ACTION REQUEST 2: I request that the chairs declare that based on the >>> debate about the QoS functionality so far, the document should be >>> resurrected, and will continue to be worked on in the RTCWEB working >>> group, bringing in advice from TSVWG as required to make sure the >>> descriptions of underlying mechanisms, and the choice of such >>> mechanisms, is correct and appropriate. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------
- [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision James Polk
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Gonzalo Camarillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Wesley Eddy
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Gonzalo Camarillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision James Polk
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Wesley Eddy
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Subha Dhesikan (sdhesika)
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Eggert, Lars
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Eggert, Lars
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Dave Crocker
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Dave Crocker
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Wesley Eddy
- [rtcweb] RTCWEB milestones (was: Protesting the Q… SM
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWEB milestones Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Protesting the QoS document decision Markus.Isomaki