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Re: [rtcweb] Congratuiations on the Cisco announcement - but we still prefer VP8

"Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" <mzanaty@cisco.com> Thu, 07 November 2013 16:40 UTC

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From: "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" <mzanaty@cisco.com>
To: Gregory Maxwell <greg@xiph.org>, David Singer <singer@apple.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Congratuiations on the Cisco announcement - but we still prefer VP8
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Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2013 16:40:15 +0000
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Cc: Harald Alvestrand <hta@google.com>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Congratuiations on the Cisco announcement - but we still prefer VP8
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The previous comparisons used poor x264 settings and different rate
controls.
The latest comparisons used better x264 settings:
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg09064.html
...and then more similar rate controls:
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg09126.html

In the end, it is a draw, with or without rate control. Which was expected
since the actual coding tools are virtually identical. We could have saved
a lot of time and posturing if the codec experts on both sides would have
just admitted this. Performance is a wash (when ignoring high profile).

Mo


On 11/7/13, 4:47 AM, Gregory Maxwell <greg@xiph.org> wrote:

On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:35 PM, David Singer <singer@apple.com> wrote:
> On Nov 7, 2013, at 15:19 , Harald Alvestrand <hta@google.com> wrote:
>> Re performance, and just so that silence isn't taken as me agreeing
>>with David Singer on this topic:
>> I haven't wanted to distract from the debate at hand by tossing more
>>numbers around, but we do think VP8 is significantly better than
>>Baseline. The exchanges with Ericsson have shown that we need to be
>>meticulously clear in defining what we mean by that and how we measure
>>it, so I won't post more numbers until I feel that our description is
>>precise enough.
>
> I also would like to see some tests which tell us where we really are.
>A lot of us are engineers who like having facts, even if, as many of us
>realize, the comparative performance is a minor part of the debate.
>
> I welcome Ericsson's efforts to get clarity in this area; they seem to
>have been working very hard to get a level playing field measure, and if
>you can help that effort, this would be all to the good.

Hm.  Maybe I'm confused: I thought slide 9 from the H.264 "joint
presentation" in Atlanta (
http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/85/slides/slides-85-rtcweb-10.pdf )
showed baseline needing 16% more bitrate than VP8 at the same quality,
and the debate was more over high profile and the magnitude of VP8's
lead wrt baseline.

(And, also in agreement: quality isn't the thing to debate in
excruciating detail, but I did think at least this point wasn't
controversial. Did I miss a post?)
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