Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87
Stefan Håkansson LK <stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com> Sat, 13 July 2013 18:39 UTC
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From: Stefan Håkansson LK <stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com>
To: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87
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Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2013 18:39:16 +0000
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Cc: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>, "<rtcweb@ietf.org>" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87
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On 7/12/13 7:19 PM, Peter Thatcher wrote: > > > > On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 12:35 AM, Stefan Håkansson LK > <stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com > <mailto:stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com>> wrote: > > On 7/11/13 9:38 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: > > On 11 July 2013 12:04, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) <fluffy@cisco.com > <mailto:fluffy@cisco.com>> > > wrote: > >> On Jul 11, 2013, at 10:35 AM, Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org > <mailto:emcho@jitsi.org>> > >>> In you last mail on the subject you mentioned that we will be > >>> discussing No Plan in Berlin together with plans A and B. Could > >>> we please add this to the agenda? > >> > >> No. We believe that conversation needs to happen in the W3C WebRTC > >> WG. I expect to see a message from W3C chairs on this at some > >> point. > > > > I'm a little nervous about this. Where does the decision on the > > separation of responsibilities (API vs. SDP) get made? > > (I have not been able to confer with any of the other chairs, so this is > just my personal opinion): > > To me it seems pretty straightforward to a certain point: > > * The SDP (if we opt to continue using SDP for this purpose) that goes > on the signaling wire between the browsers is defined by IETF (and by > the rtcweb WG I presume even though MMUSIC seems to have some stake) > > * JS APIs to: > ** Apply an SDP (e.g. received on the signaling channel) to the browser > ** Hand an SDP generated by the browser over to the application (for > transmission over the signaling wire presumably) > ** Influencing/modifying the contents of the SDP > * All belongs to the W3C WebRTC > > > Would it make sense to change this list to say the following? > > * JS APIs to: > ** Apply a SessionDescription (created by SDP; eg received on the > signaling channel or built by JS) to the browser > ** Hand a SessionDescription (serializable to SDP) generated by the > browser over to the application (for > transmission over the signaling wire presumably or for immediately > applying with setLocalDescription for some local effect) > ** Influencing/modifying the contents of the SessionDescription (and > thus, SDP, when serialized to SDP) > * All belongs to the W3C WebRTC That might well be a better way to put it. > > > My changes highlight a few things: > 1. The API (setLocalDescripiton, setRemoteDescription, creatOffer, etc) > doesn't work with SDP directly. It works with RTCSessionDescription > objects. It just happens to be that currently the only way to interact > with RTCSessionDescription objects is through SDP. I think it's worth > remembering that distinction. > > 2. SDP does not necessarily go over the wire. It only necessarily > goes through the API between JS and browser. I think it's worth > remembering that distinction. > > 3. Calling setLocalDescription with a new SessionDescription object can > have purely local effects that don't need to be sent over the wire. I > think it's worth remembering those cases. > > > What seems unclear to me is where we define what modifications to the > SDP that are allowed - and when. Even though the ambition is to have > APIs that makes SDP mangling an exception, we will still see that > happening. > > > I think advanced JS apps are going to use every control knob they can > get to, whether it's anticipated and well-supported or not. I think > there's a good chance that a a popular WebRTC web app will use some SDP > mangling that wasn't anticipated, but happened to work, but then the > browser can't remove it because it will break certain websites. It > could get even worse if someone writes a popular WebRTC wrapper library > that uses tricky SDP mangling that is then used by lots of websites. > Certain SDP mangling techniques might end up becoming a defacto > standard API that can't be removed, even if it was originally a bug. Or > worse, one browser will have to implement the SDP mangling or even the > bugs of another, because WebRTC apps have come to rely on them. > > In fact, it's already the case that Chrome and Firefox support far > different SDP manglings. I don't think any web apps rely on that yet, > but it's only a matter of time before someone figures out "hey, if I > mangle the SDP on this browser this way and on that browser that way, I > can do things I couldn't do otherwise". Or worse, an advanced web app > developer says "hey, I can make this work well on browser X via SDP > mangling, but not on browser Y, so I'll put a 'best used with Browser X' > icon on my website". Then that someone writes an abstraction on top of > that, and then maybe shares that with others, and it goes from there. > > I think we're in a race with web developers to see if they'll figure out > SDP mangling before we provide a way to avoid SDP mangling. Who do you > think moves faster? Let's go over to the public-webrtc W3C space and work on this. > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list > > rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > >
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87 Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87 Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87 Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87 Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87 Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87 Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87 Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87 Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87 Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87 Mary Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87 Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87 Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87 - FW Issues Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87 Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87 Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87 Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87 - FW Issues Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87 - FW Issues Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87 - FW Issues Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87 - FW Issues Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87 - FW Issues Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87 Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87 Hadriel Kaplan
- [rtcweb] A compromise for SDES Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87 Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] A compromise for SDES Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] A compromise for SDES Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] A compromise for SDES Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] A compromise for SDES Hrishikesh Kulkarni
- Re: [rtcweb] A compromise for SDES Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Draft agenda for IETF 87 Suhas Nandakumar
- Re: [rtcweb] A compromise for SDES Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] A compromise for SDES Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [rtcweb] A compromise for SDES Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] A compromise for SDES Matt Fredrickson
- Re: [rtcweb] A compromise for SDES Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] A compromise for SDES Parthasarathi R
- Re: [rtcweb] A compromise for SDES Cullen Jennings