Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [was RE: About defining a signaling protocol for WebRTC (or not)]
Matthew Kaufman <matthew.kaufman@skype.net> Sat, 17 September 2011 03:45 UTC
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Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 23:05:39 +0200
From: Matthew Kaufman <matthew.kaufman@skype.net>
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To: Hadriel Kaplan <HKaplan@acmepacket.com>
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Cc: "<rtcweb@ietf.org>" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [was RE: About defining a signaling protocol for WebRTC (or not)]
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On 9/16/11 4:24 AM, Hadriel Kaplan wrote: > There is no need for a "default signaling protocol", because the "signaling" is between the browser's Javascript and its web server. And as for the signaling protocol the web server has to support in order to speak to other servers or non-RTCweb endpoints, even if we specified to use SIP we'd just be summarily ignored by those who don't want to, because they actually don't *need* to. It doesn't hurt interoperability of rtcweb if they don't implement SIP - it just means they can't talk to other SIP devices/servers. But it's not like we need an RFC to say "if you don't implement X then you can't talk to people who do X". Agree. > > Think of this RTCWEB concept as Skinny/SCCP. The Web Server is Call Manager, and the browser is the Skinny phone, but in this case instead of needing a 7960 phone, the Skinny protocol was written in javascript and uses a browser's user interface for its GUI and the built-in RTP library for media. (in fact one could probably write a javascript to do just that, if Call Manager handled SCCP over websocket) Actually, it is even better than this. Think of the RTCWEB Javascript API as "Skinny/SCCP". The web developer is then free to have "call manager" be up in the server and simply pass down data that is reflected directly into the API... or the web developer can use the fact that there's a complete programming environment on the browser to implement some or all of "call manager" *at the browser*, and that choice is completely in the application developer's hands. They can write Skinny in Javascript and use the browser UI for the GUI and RTP library for media, and interoperate with SIP by building a complete SIP-to-Skinny translation at the server. But they can also write SIP in Javascript and use the browser UI for the GUI and RTP library for the media, and interoperate with SIP by building just a Websocket-to-SIP converter up at the server. Completely up to them... *if* we build a Javascript API that actually lets the programmer make this decision, just like they can make the same decision when they are programming to the Windows or Mac APIs. On other other hand, if we bake too much in (a SIP implementation, all the semantics of SDP offer-answer, etc.) then the application developer either has their hands tied, or is forced to resort to silly things like taking an SDP offer and parsing it in Javascript to get the capabilities of the browser they're running in and then writing it back out as a different SDP offer that matches what they really want. > > Clearly the IETF does not need to define for Cisco a standardized replacement for the SCCP protocol for this to work, because one isn't needed since the client javascript and server are built by the same developers and they know how their proprietary signaling works. Indeed. The protocol needs exactly the same level of standardization that Google needed to build Gmail. You need HTTP, possibly Websockets, a common programming language (Javascript) and a common set of interfaces (the Javascript API). The rest, including exactly what is transported on the wire, should be up to the developer. The format, how much of the logic lives at each end, etc. > So how about for the signaling Call Manager would use to other VoIP devices, like gateways or VoIP service providers? Does the IETF need to tell Cisco what peer-to-peer protocol(s) to implement on Call Manager? No, and we never have. Cisco's product managers decide that. They decide if Call Manager needs to be able to communicate a standard protocol at all, such as SIP or H.323, and which one/any of those. They decide based on their use-cases/need. Agree. If they want to connect to SIP providers for PSTN access, they can implement that. If they want to talk XMPP and Jingle because that's their preferred federation protocol, that's ok too. > > Some rtcweb developers may not do any standard signaling protocol, ever. For example many Instant Messaging providers still have closed environments to this day. (e.g., AIM, YIM, MSN, etc.) My employer is arguably one of the largest VoIP providers in the world, and most definitely isn't using standard signaling protocols. > Some may choose to only use H.323, or XMPP, or IAX, or even BICC. Some may choose to only support SIP with 3GPP extensions. Obviously most of us think/hope people do SIP, but really the market makes those types of decisions, not the IETF. Just like the IETF standardized MGCP but didn't specify what the MGCP Call Agent had to support to speak to other Call Agents. SIP was given as an example in MGCP, but not mandated. > > The only thing we need to do for rtcweb is make sure the RTP library built into the browser supports media in such a way that it can communicate with other RTP peers at a media plane, regardless of what signaling protocol those peers might be using, preferably without going through media gateways. This, and supports enough security/safety that the library can be trusted to run in the browser environment. (This is where the ICE requirement comes from.) > And obviously since SIP is a very common protocol and defined by the IETF we need to make sure it's possible to use SIP on the rtcweb server, but we can't *mandate* that it be used or supported, and if we did it wouldn't change anything. Obviously it is always possible to use SIP on the RTCWEB server. After all, it is fairly trivial to gateway from Flash Player and RTMP or RTMFP to SIP, and there's no commonality there at all. The odds are extremely high that we can make interoperation even easier, both by opening up the capability and control APIs and by using a standard media transport so that media gateways can be avoided in many cases. Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] About defining a signaling protocol … Bernard Aboba
- [rtcweb] About defining a signaling protocol for … Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] About defining a signaling protocol … Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [rtcweb] About defining a signaling protocol … Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] About defining a signaling protocol … Victor Pascual
- Re: [rtcweb] About defining a signaling protocol … Prakash
- Re: [rtcweb] About defining a signaling protocol … Saúl Ibarra Corretgé
- [rtcweb] About defining a signaling protocol for … gao.yang2
- Re: [rtcweb] About defining a signaling protocol … Avasarala, Ranjit
- Re: [rtcweb] About defining a signaling protocol … Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] About defining a signaling protocol … Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] About defining a signaling protocol … Soo-Hyun Choi
- Re: [rtcweb] About defining a signaling protocol … José Luis Millán
- Re: [rtcweb] About defining a signaling protocol … Saúl Ibarra Corretgé
- Re: [rtcweb] About defining a signaling protocol … Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] About defining a signaling protocol … Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] About defining a signaling protocol … Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] About defining a signaling protocol … Lorenzo Miniero
- Re: [rtcweb] About defining a signaling protocol … Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] About defining a signaling protocol … Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] About defining a signaling protocol … Henry Sinnreich
- [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [was R… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Jim McEachern
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Avasarala, Ranjit
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Saúl Ibarra Corretgé
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Saúl Ibarra Corretgé
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Tim Panton
- [rtcweb] SDP offer/answer vs. JSON (was: About de… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… cbran
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] About defining a signaling protocol … Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] ICE and security Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] ICE and security Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] ICE and security Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] ICE and security Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] ICE and security Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] About defining a signaling protocol … Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] ICE and security Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] About defining a signaling protocol … Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] ICE and security Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… José Luis Millán
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] ICE and security Dan Wing
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] SDP offer/answer vs. JSON (was: Abou… Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Jim McEachern
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Saúl Ibarra Corretgé
- Re: [rtcweb] SDP offer/answer vs. JSON Magnus Westerlund
- [rtcweb] Data Transport, was: Re: RTCWeb default … Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Transport, was: Re: RTCWeb defa… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Transport, was: Re: RTCWeb defa… Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Transport, was: Re: RTCWeb defa… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Saúl Ibarra Corretgé
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Saúl Ibarra Corretgé
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… José Luis Millán
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Transport, was: Re: RTCWeb defa… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] SDP offer/answer vs. JSON (was: Abou… Elwell, John
- Re: [rtcweb] SDP offer/answer vs. JSON Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] SDP offer/answer vs. JSON Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Henry Sinnreich
- [rtcweb] "20 lines" (Re: RTCWeb default signaling… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Transport, was: Re: RTCWeb defa… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Transport, was: Re: RTCWeb defa… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Transport, was: Re: RTCWeb defa… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Transport, was: Re: RTCWeb defa… Colin Perkins
- Re: [rtcweb] "20 lines" (Re: RTCWeb default signa… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Transport, was: Re: RTCWeb defa… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Transport, was: Re: RTCWeb defa… Colin Perkins
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Transport, was: Re: RTCWeb defa… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Transport, was: Re: RTCWeb defa… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Transport, was: Re: RTCWeb defa… Saúl Ibarra Corretgé
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Transport, was: Re: RTCWeb defa… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Data Transport, was: Re: RTCWeb defa… Randell Jesup
- [rtcweb] SCTP for data channels in rtcweb Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] SCTP for data channels in rtcweb Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] "20 lines" (Re: RTCWeb default signa… Jozsef Vass
- Re: [rtcweb] "20 lines" (Re: RTCWeb default signa… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] "20 lines" (Re: RTCWeb default signa… Saúl Ibarra Corretgé
- Re: [rtcweb] "20 lines" (Re: RTCWeb default signa… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] "20 lines" (Re: RTCWeb default signa… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] "20 lines" (Re: RTCWeb default signa… Jozsef Vass
- Re: [rtcweb] "20 lines" (Re: RTCWeb default signa… Jozsef Vass
- Re: [rtcweb] "20 lines" (Re: RTCWeb default signa… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] "20 lines" (Re: RTCWeb default signa… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] "20 lines" (Re: RTCWeb default signa… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] "20 lines" (Re: RTCWeb default signa… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] "20 lines" (Re: RTCWeb default signa… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] "20 lines" (Re: RTCWeb default signa… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] "20 lines" (Re: RTCWeb default signa… Saúl Ibarra Corretgé
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Saúl Ibarra Corretgé
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Jim McEachern
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Cameron Byrne
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Asveren, Tolga
- Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb default signaling protocol [w… Saul Ibarra Corretge