Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (adding multiple sources without encoding them in SDP)

Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com> Tue, 18 June 2013 05:34 UTC

Return-Path: <pthatcher@google.com>
X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0BBD21F9E79 for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 17 Jun 2013 22:34:49 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.927
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.927 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pH0JybnPMREg for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 17 Jun 2013 22:34:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pb0-x234.google.com (mail-pb0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::234]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E46B21F9DFA for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Mon, 17 Jun 2013 22:34:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pb0-f52.google.com with SMTP id xa12so3501681pbc.25 for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Mon, 17 Jun 2013 22:34:49 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=9Tsojh4OXFTjYhLlUL/0IELlKbEohL6EuBcBex7RAK8=; b=IHf3GviorCpPqGZq/JiFNiTqEX4RTfBSAmaJTfPk3EiR60qroZZ3QK0Tg//CLZqdoB fRKdt7DPqrHxkKQqFQpKQDBOHJG5YeR9GNZhTDzlzlj/ZdjFkfZrYPn7w8QaKJNBYEtK pAPIFBsOfYd97oXOJVB2hX29+AMHT0eBvyYFyqFyiHa+58EalA7WyVwn+D1HpTXB7E5F qMe1qp6juu3XN+9OltvE2kX/IPgofKNNpxtQIqfIcVMti05tjgwpFGlUdvvVl1wldZ/E aDuNN851fD3AH7Vwu7samPlNLGVTUUVnV+CUWKz2vopypeuZulgI4HXziSLu7FsSuf34 lC/Q==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=9Tsojh4OXFTjYhLlUL/0IELlKbEohL6EuBcBex7RAK8=; b=KzQmdAqB7yQkjTmy0OqCh46s1IHoVBPWNDeSJAG/t1wRBBsz7qt5W/UYq0COP0LS5b CFjQfabfveuEm5MIZtD/zQN5tdvwnmrDhS0uKdLyKBFeqKhhwNuz9B+LauD2Cv8uwY5P SJjza3EyR6qyKKgm9J+8vMH4SddQVXBiDyCGLc7Px29m523oi4LiKQAM/mtB2QwAz/4/ RGFzjMsZZF4JBmC8/pi40/5LDOY5rzWnNKLEqptNGGD46y4im7De3rXLK16rhepUJhbQ w30uGod/JK1Fdh9PCn1OdZzR0lxk/hBYg0ZUYX/gJYv/gv8GoFpkxb22BddYxIaw5DXN vLrw==
X-Received: by 10.68.1.226 with SMTP id 2mr15963365pbp.150.1371533688959; Mon, 17 Jun 2013 22:34:48 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.66.88.8 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Jun 2013 22:34:08 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <BLU169-W13367E5FDE396829D364D62938C0@phx.gbl>
References: <CAJrXDUHdoxLTsofiwLBdwBNnCCkCBgjSdbmLaXrNEPODMrsSVA@mail.gmail.com> <CABkgnnUmRpanfpwryyiCUsOdMLzrd74n-4LXaj_AK3aLe0yQ8Q@mail.gmail.com> <51BF5F00.90705@jitsi.org> <CABkgnnWTvJYG1_HQWz3pZw633rgadeKzx472MTzzFMuq073RgQ@mail.gmail.com> <CALiegfkZcXrNR3CXY--d4ObZMV2z7NEpgdyVHtVtROVtDQsT6A@mail.gmail.com> <CAD5OKxs95gAmYoCr-EB6LaDFW7vaFfpF7=9fu_aCfV=LjwsVpg@mail.gmail.com> <BLU169-W13367E5FDE396829D364D62938C0@phx.gbl>
From: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 22:34:08 -0700
Message-ID: <CAJrXDUEO-prozZPYAm2snfgUXhS5nKRN-ZXWdU1VGfXGnOTAfg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec5314817541c6904df6712dd
X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlnr5gtICT79AuuiJ0EJGql4wqc0t75oQU9Lzg1/6QXyypmwrSiChnTrLEAsaU94PRAi0st4eAtbGvDCCOipymkMmeWWpPqqsBV1H+IB1KhQ+wnB+vfzlztx9IRx18ySzb62AwgfPXptKAzE8UbWbZ7ftL2jUe3VtYEoINbmnxsh6wGMzcoAcYujTeIwyn5j0drvmky
Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Proposal for a JS API for NoPlan (adding multiple sources without encoding them in SDP)
X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list <rtcweb.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb>
List-Post: <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 05:34:49 -0000

I like your comparison to the data channels.  As I just pointed out in
another email, I think it was good that we "contained the SDP monster", as
you put it, with createDataChannel.  One of the purposes of
createLocalStream/createRemoteStream is to allow a JS app, if it chooses,
to "contain the SDP monster" when adding media streams.  It would still be
needed for setting up the PeerConnection's transport (a monster container
for a future day perhaps), but that's still significant progress in my
book, and it does so with simple additions to the PeerConnection that don't
attempt to blow up the WG.


On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 5:14 PM, Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>wrote:

>
>
>
> 2) Dissadvantages of using SDP in WebRTC.
>
>
> Roman said:
> "An unmanageable monster was created which currently stays in the way of
> developing new functionality (bundle), building applications (does not
> provide obvious ways to implement obvious tasks, like adding an extra
> stream without re-negotiating all the existing ones) and even interop with
> existing SIP endpoints (which was the original but now is complicated since
> it would require a non trivial set of constraints and subsequent SDP
> manipulation)."
>
> [BA] Hard to argue with this, but I would point out that by far the
> ugliest part of the monster is the video hindquarters.  While one could
> argue that we have been living with the warts of SDP for audio and
> therefore know the workarounds, with video there are substantial
> interoperability issues, *even among vendors who utilize the same
> codec*, sometimes even in relatively basic scenarios (e.g. P2P video call
> with H.264/SVC).  So the "multivendor legacy of interop" just doesn't exist
> yet (at least, based on standards).
>
> So as I see it, it does represent progress that we have contained the SDP
> monster's impact on the  the data channel, and I welcome Peter's effort to
> enable applications who don't care about SDP to minimize its usage even if
> it is not eliminated entirely.
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>
>