Re: [rtcweb] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238
Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> Sat, 25 August 2018 16:42 UTC
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Cc: "clue@ietf.org" <clue@ietf.org>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>, "mmusic@ietf.org" <mmusic@ietf.org>, "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org>
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From: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
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Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 18:42:37 +0200
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238
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Speaking as editor of -overview and -transport, I support this approach. (-transport already references ice-bis, now 8445). On 08/22/2018 07:58 PM, Adam Roach wrote: > Members of the ART community interested in real-time communications: > > Cluster 238 [1] is a set of inter-related documents dealing with > real-time communications. The bulk of these documents relate to > WebRTC, either directly or indirectly. They also form the > underpinnings of CLUE. As of now, there are 34 documents in the > cluster that are not yet published, with 25 of these already in the > RFC Editor's queue. The dependency graph among these documents is such > that the bulk of them can be published as soon as a specific six of > them are handed off to the RFC editor, and we expect this to happen in > the upcoming few months. > > One long-running complication for this cluster of documents is that > each of the documents were developed over the course of seven years, > in concert with implementations, while the ICE protocol itself was > undergoing significant revision. As a consequence, some documents rely > (directly or indirectly) on the older ICE specification (RFC 5245), > while some rely on the newer one (RFC 8445). In some cases, documents > refer directly to the old version and transitively to the new version. > > It is noteworthy that RFC 8445 obsoletes RFC 5245; and that the > mechanism described in RFC 8445 has some changes that break backwards > compatibility with the mechanism defined in RFC 5245 (with such > behavioral changes controlled by an SDP attribute, allowing clients to > transition from one to the other). > > Most notably, draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep (which is the core WebRTC > protocol in the IETF) refers to directly to RFC 5245, while relying on > the behavior defined in draft-ietf-ice-trickle; > draft-ietf-ice-trickle, in turn, is based on the newer RFC 8445 > handling. JSEP's reference to RFC 5245 is a practical consideration > that acknowledges that current deployments of WebRTC implement the > older version of ICE. At the same time, these deployed implementations > use a somewhat older version of draft-ietf-ice-trickle in concert with > the older ICE implementation. > > In order to get Cluster 238 published, we need to find some way to > rationalize its references to ICE. At a basic level, the ART Area > Directors do not believe that it makes sense to publish new documents > that refer to an already obsoleted RFC. At the same time, we recognize > that there is value in our specifications being informed by running > code. For WebRTC, the complexity of the system has led us to a point > that we must choose between these principles. Our proposal is to > choose the first, while acknowledging the second. > > This would result in a request to the RFC editor to update all > references to RFC 5245 in the Cluster 238 documents to instead point > to RFC 8445. Documents not yet in the RFC editor queue would be > updated prior to IESG review. We would further request that the RFC > editor add the following text to draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview and > draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep: > >> While this specification formally relies on [RFC8445], at the time of >> its publication, the majority of WebRTC implementations support the >> version of ICE described in [RFC5245], and use a pre-standard version >> of the trickle ice mechanism described in [RFCXXXX]. The use of the >> "ice2" attribute defined in [RFC8445] can be used to detect the >> version in use by a remote endpoint and to provide a smooth >> transition from the older specification to the newer one. > RFC 8445 would be a normative reference for both documents, while RFC > 5245 would be informative. > > There is one more minor complication, in that > draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes (which currently points to RFC > 5245) is intended to be an exhaustive list of the SDP attributes > defined in the documents it lists, and RFC 8445 adds a new "ice2" > attribute that was not present in RFC 5245. For this reason, we would > also ask the RFC Editor to add a new row to the table in > draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes section 5.12, as follows: > >> +-------------------+---------------------------+-------+-----------+ >> | Name | Notes | Level | Mux | >> | | | | Category | >> +-------------------+---------------------------+-------+-----------+ >> | ice2 | Not Impacted | S | NORMAL | >> | | | | | >> +-------------------+---------------------------+-------+-----------+ > > For clarity, the affected documents are as follows. > > The following documents would be updated to reference RFC 8445 prior > to IESG evaluation: > > * draft-ietf-clue-datachannel > * draft-ietf-clue-signaling > * draft-ietf-rtcweb-security > * draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch > > > The following documents would be updated to reference RFC 8445 by the > RFC Editor: > > * draft-ietf-mmusic-mux-exclusive > * draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp > * draft-ietf-rtcweb-alpn > * draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel > * draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage > > > The following documents would be updated to reference RFC 8445 and > have the text proposed above added to them: > > * draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep > * draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview > > > The following document would be updated to reference RFC 8445 by the > RFC Editor, and include a new row for "ice2" in its Section 5.12, as > described above: > > * draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes > > > This message is cross-posted to the affected working groups. Because > the issue at hand has impact across several different groups, we ask > that all follow-up discussion take place on <art@ietf.org>. Thank you. > > /Adam on behalf of the ART Area Directors > > ____ > [1] https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C238 > > > > _______________________________________________ > clue mailing list > clue@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue -- Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.
- Re: [rtcweb] [Ice] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Christer Holmberg
- [rtcweb] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] [art] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: [rtcweb] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Roni Even (A)
- Re: [rtcweb] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Clust… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Clust… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Clust… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, … Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Clust… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Clust… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] [Ice] [MMUSIC] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, … Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] [Ice] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and… Nils Ohlmeier
- Re: [rtcweb] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238 Nils Ohlmeier
- Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cl… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] [Ice] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, … Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] [Ice] [MMUSIC] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [Ice] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [Ice] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [Ice] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE… Heather Flanagan
- Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [Ice] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [Ice] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [Ice] [art] [clue] ICE, ICE… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] [clue] [Ice] [art] ICE, ICE… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] [clue] [MMUSIC] [Ice] [art] ICE, ICE… Christer Holmberg