Re: [rtcweb] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238

Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> Sat, 25 August 2018 16:42 UTC

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Cc: "clue@ietf.org" <clue@ietf.org>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>, "mmusic@ietf.org" <mmusic@ietf.org>, "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org>
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From: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
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Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 18:42:37 +0200
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] [clue] ICE, ICE-bis, and Cluster 238
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Speaking as editor of -overview and -transport, I support this approach.

(-transport already references ice-bis, now 8445).

On 08/22/2018 07:58 PM, Adam Roach wrote:
> Members of the ART community interested in real-time communications:
>
> Cluster 238 [1] is a set of inter-related documents dealing with
> real-time communications. The bulk of these documents relate to
> WebRTC, either directly or indirectly. They also form the
> underpinnings of CLUE. As of now, there are 34 documents in the
> cluster that are not yet published, with 25 of these already in the
> RFC Editor's queue. The dependency graph among these documents is such
> that the bulk of them can be published as soon as a specific six of
> them are handed off to the RFC editor, and we expect this to happen in
> the upcoming few months.
>
> One long-running complication for this cluster of documents is that
> each of the documents were developed over the course of seven years,
> in concert with implementations, while the ICE protocol itself was
> undergoing significant revision. As a consequence, some documents rely
> (directly or indirectly) on the older ICE specification (RFC 5245),
> while some rely on the newer one (RFC 8445). In some cases, documents
> refer directly to the old version and transitively to the new version.
>
> It is noteworthy that RFC 8445 obsoletes RFC 5245; and that the
> mechanism described in RFC 8445 has someĀ  changes that break backwards
> compatibility with the mechanism defined in RFC 5245 (with such
> behavioral changes controlled by an SDP attribute, allowing clients to
> transition from one to the other).
>
> Most notably, draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep (which is the core WebRTC
> protocol in the IETF) refers to directly to RFC 5245, while relying on
> the behavior defined in draft-ietf-ice-trickle;
> draft-ietf-ice-trickle, in turn, is based on the newer RFC 8445
> handling. JSEP's reference to RFC 5245 is a practical consideration
> that acknowledges that current deployments of WebRTC implement the
> older version of ICE. At the same time, these deployed implementations
> use a somewhat older version of draft-ietf-ice-trickle in concert with
> the older ICE implementation.
>
> In order to get Cluster 238 published, we need to find some way to
> rationalize its references to ICE. At a basic level, the ART Area
> Directors do not believe that it makes sense to publish new documents
> that refer to an already obsoleted RFC. At the same time, we recognize
> that there is value in our specifications being informed by running
> code. For WebRTC, the complexity of the system has led us to a point
> that we must choose between these principles. Our proposal is to
> choose the first, while acknowledging the second.
>
> This would result in a request to the RFC editor to update all
> references to RFC 5245 in the Cluster 238 documents to instead point
> to RFC 8445. Documents not yet in the RFC editor queue would be
> updated prior to IESG review. We would further request that the RFC
> editor add the following text to draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview and
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep:
>
>> While this specification formally relies on [RFC8445], at the time of
>> its publication, the majority of WebRTC implementations support the
>> version of ICE described in [RFC5245], and use a pre-standard version
>> of the trickle ice mechanism described in [RFCXXXX]. The use of the
>> "ice2" attribute defined in [RFC8445] can be used to detect the
>> version in use by a remote endpoint and to provide a smooth
>> transition from the older specification to the newer one. 
> RFC 8445 would be a normative reference for both documents, while RFC
> 5245 would be informative.
>
> There is one more minor complication, in that
> draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes (which currently points to RFC
> 5245) is intended to be an exhaustive list of the SDP attributes
> defined in the documents it lists, and RFC 8445 adds a new "ice2"
> attribute that was not present in RFC 5245. For this reason, we would
> also ask the RFC Editor to add a new row to the table in
> draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes section 5.12, as follows:
>
>>    +-------------------+---------------------------+-------+-----------+
>>    | Name              | Notes                     | Level | Mux       |
>>    |                   |                           |       | Category  |
>>    +-------------------+---------------------------+-------+-----------+
>>    | ice2              | Not Impacted              | S     | NORMAL    |
>>    |                   |                           |       |           |
>>    +-------------------+---------------------------+-------+-----------+
>
> For clarity, the affected documents are as follows.
>
> The following documents would be updated to reference RFC 8445 prior
> to IESG evaluation:
>
>   * draft-ietf-clue-datachannel
>   * draft-ietf-clue-signaling
>   * draft-ietf-rtcweb-security
>   * draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch
>
>
> The following documents would be updated to reference RFC 8445 by the
> RFC Editor:
>
>   * draft-ietf-mmusic-mux-exclusive
>   * draft-ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp
>   * draft-ietf-rtcweb-alpn
>   * draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel
>   * draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage
>
>
> The following documents would be updated to reference RFC 8445 and
> have the text proposed above added to them:
>
>   * draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep
>   * draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview
>
>
> The following document would be updated to reference RFC 8445 by the
> RFC Editor, and include a new row for "ice2" in its Section 5.12, as
> described above:
>
>   * draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-mux-attributes
>
>
> This message is cross-posted to the affected working groups. Because
> the issue at hand has impact across several different groups, we ask
> that all follow-up discussion take place on <art@ietf.org>;. Thank you.
>
> /Adam on behalf of the ART Area Directors
>
> ____
> [1] https://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C238
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> clue mailing list
> clue@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clue


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