Re: [rtcweb] Agenda time request for draft-marjou-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-01

<stephane.proust@orange.com> Thu, 14 March 2013 12:36 UTC

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From: <stephane.proust@orange.com>
To: Jean-Marc Valin <jmvalin@mozilla.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Agenda time request for draft-marjou-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-01
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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:35:45 +0000
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>, MARJOU Xavier OLNC/OLN <xavier.marjou@orange.com>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda time request for draft-marjou-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-01
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Hello 

The short list is aligned to what is specified in 3GPP (mobile) and CAT-iq (fixed). Check the related service specifications!
The short list (AMR, AMR-WB, G.722) is a minimal subset of codecs to minimize interop issues and transcoding costs for telco services. 
It's not a question of what's the favourite codec for a given application. It's interop with billions of mobile phones and with fixed terminals in legacy telephony services. 

Stéphane

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Jean-Marc Valin [mailto:jmvalin@mozilla.com] 
Envoyé : jeudi 14 mars 2013 05:55
À : PROUST Stephane OLNC/OLPS
Cc : Andrew Allen; Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com; MARJOU Xavier OLNC/OLN; rtcweb@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [rtcweb] Agenda time request for draft-marjou-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-01

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On 03/13/2013 06:48 PM, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote:
> The reason is simply that AMR and AMR-WB are supported in billions of 
> devices !

Just curious, why exclude from the list other codecs with similar huge deployment? I can think of at least:
- - GSM-FR (mobile)
- - Speex (Flash)
- - G.729 (PSTN gateways)
- - iLBC (PSTN gateways)
- - G.726 (DECT)
- - SILK (original non-Opus version in Skype)

(sorry, if I missed someone's favorite codec in this list)

It's not at all clear to me what's so special that makes AMR, AMR-WB and G.722 different from the other codecs in the list above. Not that I insist on shipping G.729 :-)

Personally, I'd favor a draft that included a lot more codecs, describing for each one the benefits of supporting it. Implementers could then choose which of these they care about for their particular situation.

Cheers,

	Jean-Marc

> Stéphane
> 
> 
> -----Message d'origine----- De : Andrew Allen 
> [mailto:aallen@blackberry.com] Envoyé : mercredi 13 mars 2013
> 23:41 À : PROUST Stephane OLNC/OLPS; Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com; 
> jmvalin@mozilla.com Cc : MARJOU Xavier OLNC/OLN; rtcweb@ietf.org Objet 
> : Re: [rtcweb] Agenda time request for
> draft-marjou-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-01
> 
> 
> No this wouldn't be acceptable to me.
> 
> I don't see a reason to push a particular set of Codecs over any other 
> set of codecs supported on the device. If the device supports the 
> codecs and they are available to the browser then we should recommend 
> that they be offered in the negotiation.
> 
> The marjou draft can advertise the merits and reasons why they are 
> good codecs to support.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: stephane.proust@orange.com 
> [mailto:stephane.proust@orange.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013
> 05:14 PM Central Standard Time To: Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com 
> <Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com>om>; jmvalin@mozilla.com <jmvalin@mozilla.com> 
> Cc: MARJOU Xavier OLNC/OLN <xavier.marjou@orange.com>om>; rtcweb@ietf.org 
> <rtcweb@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda time	request	for
> draft-marjou-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-01
> 
> Dear Markus
> 
> Thanks for your attempt to help !
> 
> Of course each Telco can handle this directly with vendors and 
> browsers manufacturers at business level. But I don't'think this need 
> of interoperability with mobile devices is specific to Orange.
> I think all mobile operators will have the same issue and this is why 
> standardization exist. It's most cost and time efficient to have one 
> common way forward for all the industry.
> 
> Then if the issue is that "conditional MUST/SHOULD are a too 
> complicated requirement. We could also live as a compromise with a 
> formulation that has already been suggested on the reflector:
> 
> "If other suitable audio codecs are available to the browser to use it 
> is recommended that they are also included in the offer in order to 
> maximize the possibility to establish the session without the need for 
> audio transcoding" If possible with the addition of This is especially 
> the case for AMR, AMR-WB for interoperability with mobile devices and 
> G.722 for interoperability with fixed DECT CAT-iq devices
> 
> Would it have one chance to reach consensus ?
> 
> I think this Group should at least make one small step so that the 
> interoperability issue with mobile terminals be not fully ignored in 
> the RTC Web specification considering the huge number of deployed 
> devices. At least something must be written on this !
> G.711 which is the only codec in addition to OPUS for interoperability 
> purpose is not a proper answer to this.
> 
> Stéphane
> 
> -----Message d'origine----- De : Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com 
> [mailto:Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com] Envoyé : mercredi 13 mars 2013
> 22:37 À : PROUST Stephane OLNC/OLPS; jmvalin@mozilla.com; MARJOU 
> Xavier OLNC/OLN Cc : rtcweb@ietf.org Objet : RE: [rtcweb] Agenda time 
> request for draft-marjou-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-01
> 
> Hi Stephane, Xavier,
> 
> I understand the intent of your proposal. I'm not sure if the IETF is 
> the best venue for you to pursue it, however. Perhaps you as a mobile 
> operator should rather set it as a requirement to your mobile device 
> platforms that they open up the APIs to AMR and AMR-WB and that at 
> least the in-built default browser needs to support it. If there are 
> enough operators setting such requirements directly to the device and 
> platform vendors, it probably has a bigger impact than an IETF RFC. 
> Getting that support for user-installed additional browsers might be 
> more difficult, but most mobile device users stick with the default 
> browser anyway.
> 
> The RTCWEB codec document needs to definitely explain this case and 
> the benefits, but the conditional MUSTs or SHOULDs you are proposing 
> are perhaps a bit too complicated. Hmm, perhaps we need to do an 
> _informational_ RFC as something like "Recommendations for WebRTC on 
> Mobile Devices" addressing the codec and perhaps other issues, that 
> you could use as a reference in your requirements.
> 
> Markus
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message----- From: rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org 
>> [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext 
>> stephane.proust@orange.com Sent: 13 March, 2013 21:37 To:
>> Jean-Marc Valin; MARJOU Xavier OLNC/OLN Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda time request for
>> draft-marjou-rtcweb-audio- codecs-for-interop-01
>> 
>> Hello
>> 
>> Our understanding is that the reason of the "no consensus" on 
>> additional recommended codecs was the additional costs for browsers. 
>> The proposal is then to make these "MUST" fully conditional to the 
>> case of no (or very reduced) additional costs, when the codecs are 
>> already available on the device and when no additional license fee is 
>> required
>> 
>> We could even live with lower level of "requirements" with 
>> respectively May and Should (instead of Should and shall) but we 
>> think that this proposal is a way to take into account both browser 
>> manufacturers concerns on browsers costs and telcos concerns on 
>> transcoding costs and some other companies share this view.
>> 
>> Stéphane
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Message d'origine----- De : rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org 
>> [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Jean-Marc Valin Envoyé 
>> : mercredi 13 mars 2013 20:24 À : MARJOU Xavier OLNC/OLN Cc : 
>> rtcweb@ietf.org Objet : Re: [rtcweb] Agenda time request for 
>> draft-marjou-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-01
>> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'd really like to understand how the chairs coming to the conclusion 
> that there was *no consensus* on recommended codecs can result in a 
> draft that includes 3 MUSTs and 1 SHOULD. This draft effectively makes 
> 3 new codecs MTI for a range of devices. I understand that it's an 
> individual draft and you can write whatever you like in there, but it 
> definitely goes against the result of the WG discussion.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jean-Marc
> 
> On 03/13/2013 09:14 AM, Xavier Marjou wrote:
>>>> Here is a summary of the
>>>> draft-marjou-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-00 presentation that I 
>>>> had prepared for yesterday's session:
>>>> 
>>>> - The co-authors want to underline that non-WebRTC voice endpoints 
>>>> usually use one of the following codecs: AMR, AMR-WB or G.722, 
>>>> which will result in massive transcoding when there will be 
>>>> communications between WebRTC endpoints and non-WebRTC endpoints.
>>>> 
>>>> - On one side, transcoding is bad for many reasons discussed in the 
>>>> draft (cost issues, intrinsic quality degradation, degraded 
>>>> interactivity, fallback from HD to G.711...);
>>>> 
>>>> - On the other side, it is recognized that implementing additional 
>>>> codecs in the browsers can generate additional costs.
>>>> 
>>>> - In order to reach a compromise, we would like to add some text in 
>>>> the WG draft draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio providing incentives for the 
>>>> browser to use these three codecs: make them mandatory to implement 
>>>> when there is no cost impact on the browser (e.g. if codec already 
>>>> installed, paid by the device vendor...).
>>>> 
>>>> Any opinion on that?
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> 
>>>> Xavier
>>>> 
>>>> PS: I will be ready to present the slides on Thursday if time 
>>>> permits it.
>>>> 
>>>> (c.f.
>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/86/slides/slides-86-rtcweb-6.pdf
>>>>
>>>> 
)
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com 
>>>> <mailto:ted.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Magnus and I discussed this this morning, and we encourage you to 
>>>> prepare something.  If the discussion of working group last call 
>>>> items runs short, we may be able to fit this in at that time or at 
>>>> the end of day one if its full agenda his finished.  This is not a 
>>>> commitment, however, so please try and get discussion on the list 
>>>> on the points from the draft you feel need resolution.
>>>> 
>>>> regards,
>>>> 
>>>> Ted
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 2:31 PM, Espen Berger (espeberg) 
>>>> <espeberg@cisco.com <mailto:espeberg@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I would like to request agenda time for:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> draft-marjou-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-01
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> The document  presents use-cases underlining why WebRTC needs
>>>> AMR-WB,  AMR
>>>>> and G.722 as additional relevant voice codecs to satisfactorily 
>>>>> ensure interoperability with existing systems.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> A 10-minute time slot should be sufficient for presentation and
>>>> discussion.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -Espen
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________ rtcweb
> mailing list
>>>>> rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org> 
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________ rtcweb
> mailing list
>>>> rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org> 
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________ rtcweb
> mailing list
>>>> rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>>> 
> 
>> _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list 
>> rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>> 
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