Re: [rtcweb] Use Case draft

["Jim Barnett" <[e-mail]>]

Yes, the use cases in  4.3 are browser-GW, though none of them really
covers the call center case (routing to an arbitrary agent, recording
the call, etc.)

However, the requirements in section 5 don't seem to mention legacy
connectivity, unless that's what F27 is supposed to cover ("The browser
MUST be able to initiate and accept a media session where the data
needed for establishment can be carried in SIP.")  It might be good to
have a specific legacy requirement along the forms of "The Browser must
be able to communicate with legacy devices that have the following
characteristics ...." Of course, this gets into the whole
interoperability discussion. For example, should the Browser be able to
interoperate with devices that don't support  ICE?  (I have been
assuming that the call center gateway would  support ICE).  

The enterprise use cases that Roman has mentioned are separate from
this, and would add new requirements, since they involve webRTC within
the enterprise connecting to external webRTC endpoints.  In the call
center use case, the webRTC call is terminated at the gateway.  

- Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: Stefan Hakansson LK [mailto:[e-mail]] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:49 AM
To: Jim Barnett
Cc: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Use Case draft

On 05/02/2012 04:39 PM, Jim Barnett wrote:
> When I say that this use case may not add further requirements, I mean

> that it looks like it would be possible to implement it given the 
> current definitions of the protocols.  However, the current use cases 
> are all written in terms of "the browser", which is not further
defined.
> But if "browser" means Mozilla, Chrome, etc., then I think it is 
> important to add a use case in which one of the end points is not a 
> browser, but an enterprise gateway (which will route the call to an 
> employee of its choice, and may record the call, etc.) It is important

> to note that this is not a peer-to-peer use case; the gateway is not 
> the caller's peer.  The employee that the caller ends up talking to 
> may be considered a peer, but the webRTC call does not extend all the 
> way to that employee - it stops at the gateway.

I think all use cases in section 4.3 are browser - GW cases. That said,
there may be good reasons for adding this one as well.

>
> This is a very different use case from any in the current document.
> That's why it's important to add it, even though (as far as I can 
> tell) it doesn't require us to change any of the work we've done.
>
> - Jim
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On 
> Behalf Of Stefan Hakansson LK
> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 4:46 AM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Use Case draft
>
> On 05/01/2012 02:05 PM, Jim Barnett wrote:
>> One way to describe the use case is to let the contact center's media

>> server/gateway serve as the webRTC endpoint.  Then all the issues of 
>> call delivery, call monitoring, etc. disappear.  They are handled by 
>> application software that sits behind the webRTC endpoint.  The 
>> company I work for makes a good living selling software that deals 
>> with all these issues - including bathroom breaks - and that's how we

>> would tend to think of this case.  To us, it's a new kind of 
>> call/connection coming into the contact center, which we translate 
>> into SIP at the border and then handle normally.
>>
>> It's not clear to me if this use case adds any extra requirements.
>
> I think this is important to sort out. If the use case does not add 
> any extra requirements, what's the point of adding it?
>
>> We would just have to be careful not to assume that a webRTC endpoint

>> is always a person/browser-based user agent.  It may seem a bit 
>> unsettling that the webRTC endpoint can distribute the call somewhere

>> else and let others listen in, but as far as I can tell that is 
>> already the case.  If Bob calls Alice with full authentication and 
>> security, he can be sure that he is connected to Alice's user agent 
>> and that no one in between can listen in, but there's nothing 
>> stopping
>
>> Alice from recording the audio, or forwarding it to a third party.  
>> So
>
>> Bob could in fact be talking to Mary if that's how Alice wants to 
>> arrange things (_behind_ her user agent).  In general, Bob is assured

>> only that he is talking to someone Alice wants him to talk to, and 
>> that no one can snoop without Alice's permission.  That's very much 
>> the way things work with the call center - you are sure that you are
>> 1) connected securely to your bank 2) talking to someone that the 
>> bank
>
>> wants you to talk to 3) being recorded or snooped on only when the 
>> bank explicitly chooses to do so.
>>
>> - Jim
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: [e-mail] 
>> [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Marshall Eubanks Sent:
>> Monday, April 30, 2012 11:42 PM To: Hutton, Andrew Cc:
>> [e-mail] Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Use Case draft
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 2:31 PM, Hutton,
>> Andrew<[e-mail]>   wrote:
>>> Whether anybody has been successful in the past with this type of 
>>> use
>
>>> case is I think irrelevant.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The enterprise call centre use case is I think a vital use case 
>>> because it is a scenario in which one user is only concerned that 
>>> they can securely reach an organization/domain and is not concerned 
>>> about the individual within that domain  that they communicate with.
>
>>> A suspect quite a large percentage of RTCWEB applications will be 
>>> like this and it is not covered in the current use case draft.
>>
>> I agree that this is a very useful use case and one I think is going 
>> to get a lot of traction. There is a very solid business case for 
>> this.  However, I have a fair amount of experience with a video call 
>> center for a client, and it is not as simple as it might seem.
>>
>> The essence of course is that you get the next available person, 
>> i.e.,
>
>> it is anycast. Determining who the next available person is is not 
>> trivial, nor is error recovery. (If I call you, and you don't answer 
>> or the call drops or whatever,  I can leave a message or try later. 
>> If
>
>> I call a help desk, and this happens, I want a new agent, ideally
>> automatically.) Call forwarding (e.g., first tier to second tier 
>> technical support) is essential, and it may be anycast or directed.
>> There are also some security oddities  - if I am connecting from 
>> home,
>
>> I may need to authenticate, use a credit card, etc. If I am 
>> connecting
>
>> from inside a store, and providing in store video technical support 
>> is
>
>> big part of the market, then the store authenticates me off line and 
>> the call really should just be a button push, which implies that the 
>> store has previously authenticated some sort of master session. In 
>> addition, unlike most video calls, in the enterprise call center a 
>> supervisor may need to be able to monitor (i.e., watch) a call, and 
>> in
>
>> some circumstances (financial or medical calls, for example) there 
>> will need to be third party recording. I believe that  these details 
>> would be different from the typical RTCWEB scenario.
>>
>> Also, there will be a temptation to do the anycasting by the 
>> techniques used to load balance servers in a data center, but I think

>> that may not be sufficient. The call "center" may in fact be spread 
>> completely across the planet (daytime support in the US, nighttime 
>> support in India, for example) and be on multiple autonomous systems 
>> (and even from people's homes), which gives rise to some of the 
>> transport issues NVO3 may face, but without any opportunity for 
>> packet
>
>> tagging. Plus, there will complicated rules about who can be selected

>> next. RTCWEB shouldn't worry about the intricacies of bathroom break 
>> policies; these complexities should be dealt with by an 
>> enterprise-side database, which to me (together with some of the 
>> other
>
>> issues above) suggests that this would probably benefit from API 
>> support.
>>
>> Regards Marshall
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So I think we need it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On 
>>> Behalf Of Igor Faynberg Sent: 30 April 2012 17:41 To:
>>> [e-mail]
>>>
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Use Case draft
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Without numbers it is impossible to argue, but, if we talk about the

>>> perceived need, I disagree.  Think of the people who travel abroad 
>>> and cannot call the 800 number. (I routinely use Web interface for 
>>> calls when traveling.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am all for  the use case, as described by Jim.
>>>
>>> Igor
>>>
>>> On 4/30/2012 9:54 AM, Tim Panton wrote:
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> I can't tell you the actual numbers, but when presented with the 
>>> choice of calling a toll free number
>>>
>>> or clicking a button marked "free internet call" - almost no-one on 
>>> a
>
>>> real, busy site clicked the button.
>>>
>>> ( for every button click there were several orders of magnitude more
>>> 0800 calls from that page).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So from my perspective this is a legacy interop use case with almost

>>> zero user acceptance.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> (as far as I can see no-one has made this use-case desirable in 
>>> practice yet.)
>>>
>>> Tim.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> rtcweb mailing list
>>>
>>> [e-mail]
>>>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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