Re: [rtcweb] Review comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb-fec-04
Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com> Mon, 24 April 2017 18:32 UTC
Return-Path: <juberti@google.com>
X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2BC5131926 for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 24 Apr 2017 11:32:02 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.691
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.691 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZAwQaTqRj72l for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 24 Apr 2017 11:32:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-it0-x231.google.com (mail-it0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EDD571270FC for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Mon, 24 Apr 2017 11:31:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-it0-x231.google.com with SMTP id 70so3915257ita.0 for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Mon, 24 Apr 2017 11:31:59 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yJIczW43osTufn88BgR6EggDs077vB/Fm4rzLpsfpuQ=; b=MwUIDWs4XbeeIlCkvCKwqtH+Xe0CCKFp0tG0VVRaejxxNq5ZSH8OowUL6YxsBl3asA 6/VO58JWZsaryoic5FtRXcfRkPAZVfiM9a30uRLh3TPQYkGQxOf0LSiJOYtkMBVEM7zy m70k+O13Uxh7Ba93VbrB9+IK3LzCG61eI53p7r0aUshaT+WHZWphQZiGAHoxsE7xokOa hOsgIm6/toKcJMEBd2vM/SGEdo7FZVfRe+r5qKtuQO6zfoSm0aFLDQffoNYFew4/YmJq oPmOE9PA1pUij7tyXmHJvsBHRaN58k8IDnK890/DlZMntY0MMiKUeWLXu/EmE18N7FoX IH2Q==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yJIczW43osTufn88BgR6EggDs077vB/Fm4rzLpsfpuQ=; b=S5t4UdHHmJLi6vLLryWK3r1vVhxwTQBzpV0xImWpfa4JIU8jmKASoW+T/puQ4b8Vbc ONyKegA3NUsKFSQiApX5f6ilrDXfZnyrWRq8seSd08atTfbqaQioSZRTxGtRRAXLT5bL I3b2ES10cdVZe+3XDQRpIuOCQ9YweCqWz1ZbmKHenyqMl9c5TQ02YePyAo6h9OxvRL+6 tJ9GFsEVHQP+YSjHrxMyqZHX+yPB5b7zaoJ6+XZGRxbPE1q+SAI0xNLzKKaUDIrzHv7P fouxVZsrz//BHgW36v/heUy9Q4VBDufdgrqOm2kk80ZEk/DLLdBenwfJSPRL7wb5oNk5 GVfg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AN3rC/5xum7/g4ZcvEWoNjqqrw6G83xYaL7DsIYKlomwHUlBAb62UeEr 9e8XOxTN8zn4oWe2lukc32VPy1mwmmxhOmM=
X-Received: by 10.36.124.85 with SMTP id a82mr15896119itd.90.1493058719156; Mon, 24 Apr 2017 11:31:59 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.107.138.143 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Apr 2017 11:31:38 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7B090B@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com>
References: <1ddd77ef-da4a-1a89-e538-aa20742c11a4@gmail.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7B0714@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <CAOJ7v-3yukU+SLcbAiR1TYqeu54nV+8V-h9hUgFc5JRMRzgx=w@mail.gmail.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7B084E@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <9a38ffd6-e4f6-632a-b5a3-df5ded305a2e@gmail.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7B08CD@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <3a83f119-34a0-a9dc-da07-d63f1e912851@gmail.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7B090B@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com>
From: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 11:31:38 -0700
Message-ID: <CAOJ7v-2gu2aE4FqWcb4=DoRPZ30h33E6rFTjGLAiEbLz2hJ+nQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Roni Even <roni.even@huawei.com>
Cc: Sergio Garcia Murillo <sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114aa74a95ec51054dedd254"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/yw4EVuWU9o8-VnQlmxQZIYj8WiY>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Review comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb-fec-04
X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list <rtcweb.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/rtcweb/>
List-Post: <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 18:32:03 -0000
Agree - the differences in protection that you mention are what I was planning to discuss in the new text. On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 2:59 AM, Roni Even <roni.even@huawei.com> wrote: > Hi Sergio, > > I understand your distinction between FEC (ulpfec) and RED with regards > to the RTP header. Still, the RTP header extensions have their own > redundancy recommendations so they less less problem for packet loss. > > Maybe it will be good in section 3 to add a section that mention that FEC > will protect the whole RTP packet while RED and in-band fec will only > protect the RTP payload. > > > > > > Roni > > > > *From:* Sergio Garcia Murillo [mailto:sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com] > *Sent:* יום ב 24 אפריל 2017 12:09 > *To:* Roni Even; Justin Uberti > *Cc:* rtcweb@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] Review comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb-fec-04 > > > > AFAIK, FEC (at least ulpfec) protects the full packet, including header > extensions. When we are addressing the usage of RED vs FEC for audio we > should note the difference in behavior and it's possible consequences. > > Best regards > Sergio > > On 24/04/2017 11:04, Roni Even wrote: > > Hi Sergio, > > What I said that the redundancy of RTP header extensions in not a FEC > issue. FEC addresses the payload and not the RTP header. RTP header > extensions are discussed in the RFC5285-bis draft and each new RTP header > extension must address the issue of loss since RTP over UDP is unreliable. > > I am not sure we need any text in rtcweb-fec about RTP header extensions. > General RTP usage in RTCweb is in the RTCweb RTP usage and this is where > general redundancy of RTP is discussed, and as a general RTP usage it > points at redundancy for payload and for RTP header extensions reference > RFC5285 (rfc5285-bis will obsolete it and have a section about transmission > consideration. > > > > In this rtcweb-fec document audio/red is a payload; it is not an RTP > packet for which you need to address the RTP header redundancy. > > > > Roni Even > > > > *From:* Sergio Garcia Murillo [mailto:sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com > <sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com>] > *Sent:* יום ב 24 אפריל 2017 11:28 > *To:* Roni Even; Justin Uberti > *Cc:* rtcweb@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] Review comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb-fec-04 > > > > Hi Roni, > > Not following you. Neither RFC 5265 nor RFC 5265-bis references red/audio, > also webrtc-rtp-usage references the fec draft when speaking about > redundancy. > > Also, please note that I am not proposing to change current RED behavior > or its usage within webrtc, just proposing to add a "warning" note to make > it implicit what is the current situation: When using rtp red for audio, > only payload is protected, and rtp headers are not, which is almost > harmless currently but could cause some issues in the future if not taken > into consideration when using new rtp header extensions. > > Best regards > Sergio > > On 24/04/2017 7:43, Roni Even wrote: > > Hi Justin, > > I am not sure that this is something to discuss here, RTP header > extensions are discussed in https://tools.ietf.org/html/ > draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-26 , which points to RFC5285 soon to be > replaced by the rfc5285-bis draft. > > The bis draft has a section about transmission considerations see > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtcore-rfc5285- > bis-09#section-4.1.1 discussing reliability of RTP header extension > delivery by sending them in multiple RTP packets. > > > > If you still want to say something you can probably add to section 1 “ Web > Real-Time Communication (WebRTC) Media Transport and Use of RTP are > discussed in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-26” > > > > Roni > > > > > > *From:* Justin Uberti [mailto:juberti@google.com <juberti@google.com>] > *Sent:* יום א 23 אפריל 2017 21:48 > *To:* Roni Even > *Cc:* Sergio Garcia Murillo; rtcweb@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] Review comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb-fec-04 > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 10:32 PM, Roni Even <roni.even@huawei.com> wrote: > > Hi, > Inline > Roni Even > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sergio Garcia > > Murillo > > Sent: יום ו 21 אפריל 2017 12:30 > > To: rtcweb@ietf.org; Justin Uberti > > Subject: [rtcweb] Review comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb-fec-04 > > > > Hi all, Justin, > > > > I have been reviewing current FEC draft and I have a couple of comments: > > > > 1. Usage of RED and in band FEC and header extensions in Sections 3.2, > > 3.3 and 4 > > > > I think it would be worth noting that neither red/audio nor in-band fec > allows > > to recover RTP header extensions from previous packets. The impact of > > loosing the header extensions will be dependent of its meaning as, for > > example, this would cause minor problems to SFUs as client to mixer audio > > level info of previous packets will be lost, but could make it unusable > for > > PERC (as it is currently defined) as it requires the OHB header > extension. > > > [Roni Even] This is not a FEC problem but general RTP header extensions > reliability discussed in RFC5285 and RC5285-bis draft and in the specific > RTP header extension. > > > > Roni, what would you suggest we say in this document? > > > > > > > 2. Adaptive use of FEC for bandwidth probing (section 8) > > > > I think it would be a good addition to recommend FEC usage for bandwidth > > proving instead of other alternatives like RTX or padding only packets. > > > > Best regards > > > > Sergio > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rtcweb mailing list > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > > > >
- [rtcweb] Review comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb-fec… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Review comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Review comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Review comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb… Roni Even
- Re: [rtcweb] Review comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb… Roni Even
- Re: [rtcweb] Review comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Review comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb… Roni Even
- Re: [rtcweb] Review comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Review comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb… Roni Even
- Re: [rtcweb] Review comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Review comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Review comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb… Justin Uberti