Re: BFD over VXLAN: Trapping BFD Control packet at VTEP

Santosh P K <santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com> Thu, 03 October 2019 14:20 UTC

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In-Reply-To: <201909251039413767352@zte.com.cn>
From: Santosh P K <santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:50:20 +0530
Message-ID: <CACi9rdv-760M8WgZ1mOOOa=yoJqQFP=vdc3xJKLe7wCR18NSvA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: BFD over VXLAN: Trapping BFD Control packet at VTEP
To: xiao.min2@zte.com.cn
Cc: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org, Dinesh Dutt <didutt@gmail.com>, rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, Joel Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "T. Sridhar" <tsridhar@vmware.com>, bfd-chairs@ietf.org, nvo3@ietf.org
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Xiao,
   Thanks for your explanation. This helps a lot. I would wait for more
comments from others to see if this what we need in this draft to be
supported based on that we can provide appropriate sections in the draft.

Thanks
Santosh P K

On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 8:10 AM <xiao.min2@zte.com.cn> wrote:

> Hi Santosh,
>
>
> With regard to the question whether we should allow multiple BFD sessions
> for the same VNI or not, IMHO we should allow it, more explanation as
> follows.
>
> Below is a figure derived from figure 2 of RFC8014 (An Architecture for
> Data-Center Network Virtualization over Layer 3 (NVO3)).
>
>                     |         Data Center Network (IP)        |
>                     |                                         |
>                     +-----------------------------------------+
>                          |                           |
>                          |       Tunnel Overlay      |
>             +------------+---------+       +---------+------------+
>             | +----------+-------+ |       | +-------+----------+ |
>             | |  Overlay Module  | |       | |  Overlay Module  | |
>             | +---------+--------+ |       | +---------+--------+ |
>             |           |          |       |           |          |
>      NVE1   |           |          |       |           |          | NVE2
>             |  +--------+-------+  |       |  +--------+-------+  |
>             |  |VNI1 VNI2  VNI1 |  |       |  | VNI1 VNI2 VNI1 |  |
>             |  +-+-----+----+---+  |       |  +-+-----+-----+--+  |
>             |VAP1| VAP2|    | VAP3 |       |VAP1| VAP2|     | VAP3|
>             +----+-----+----+------+       +----+-----+-----+-----+
>                  |     |    |                   |     |     |
>                  |     |    |                   |     |     |
>                  |     |    |                   |     |     |
>           -------+-----+----+-------------------+-----+-----+-------
>                  |     |    |     Tenant        |     |     |
>             TSI1 | TSI2|    | TSI3          TSI1| TSI2|     |TSI3
>                 +---+ +---+ +---+             +---+ +---+   +---+
>                 |TS1| |TS2| |TS3|             |TS4| |TS5|   |TS6|
>                 +---+ +---+ +---+             +---+ +---+   +---+
>
> To my understanding, the BFD sessions between NVE1 and NVE2 are actually
> initiated and terminated at VAP of NVE.
>
> If the network operator want to set up one BFD session between VAP1 of
> NVE1 and VAP1of NVE2, at the same time another BFD session between VAP3 of
> NVE1 and VAP3 of NVE2, although the two BFD sessions are for the same
> VNI1, I believe it's reasonable, so that's why I think we should allow it.
>
>
> Of course, in RFC8014 it also says:
>
> "Note that two different Tenant Systems (and TSIs) attached to a common NVE can share a VAP (e.g., TS1 and TS2 in Figure 2) so long as they connect to the same Virtual Network."
>
> Some people may argue that all Tenant Systems connecting to the same
> Virtual Network MUST share one VAP, if that's true, then VAP1 and VAP3
> should merge into one VAP and my explanation doesn't work. Copying to NVO3
> WG to involve more experts, hope for your clarifications and comments.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Xiao Min
> 原始邮件
> *发件人:*SantoshPK <santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>
> *收件人:*Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>om>;
> *抄送人:*draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org <draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan@ietf.org>;Dinesh
> Dutt <didutt@gmail.com>;rtg-bfd WG <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>;Joel M. Halpern <
> jmh@joelhalpern.com>;T;;T. Sridhar <tsridhar@vmware.com>;bfd-chairs@ietf.org
> <bfd-chairs@ietf.org>rg>;
> *日 期 :*2019年09月23日 05:39
> *主 题 :**Re: BFD over VXLAN: Trapping BFD Control packet at VTEP*
> Greg,
>     Please see inline reply tagged [SPK]. I have added text requested.
>
> Thanks
> Santosh P K
>
> On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 4:59 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail...com
> <gregimirsky@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> Hi Santosh,
>> thank you for your comments. Please find my notes in-lined and tagged
>> GIM>>.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Greg
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 10:24 PM Santosh P K <
>> santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Greg,
>>>    Thanks for updated version of document. Here are few comments on new
>>> draft.
>>>
>>> Section 4:
>>> Destination MAC: This MUST NOT be of one of tenant's MAC
>>>          addresses.  The MAC address MAY be configured, or it MAY be
>>>          learned via a control plane protocol.  The details of how the
>>>          MAC address is obtained are outside the scope of this document.
>>>
>>> I think we may need to give background on why we are saying MAC address
>>> MUST not be one of tenant's MAC address. Like in this thread we have
>>> discussed one of the tenant could have borrowed the same VTEP mac address
>>> and we if we have to use BFD then we need to avoid that conflict to ensure
>>> BFD packets get observed in the VTEP itself. Should we add a section before
>>> 4 to set that context so that above text makes more sense in that context?
>>>
>> GIM>> Certainly. Please share the text you'd like to add.
>>
>
> [SPK]  Proposed text for why we should not use VTEP MAX address as tenant
> MAC address.
>
> "In some scenarios tenant MAC is borrowed from VTEP MAC address. VXLAN BFD
> MUST terminate BFD session at VTEP and MUST not forward BFD packets to
> tenants. To terminate VXLAN BFD packets at VTEP, deployment MUST ensure
> that there are no tenant VM which barrows VTEP MAC address."
>
>
>>>
>>>    IP header:
>>>          Destination IP: IP address MUST NOT be of one of tenant's IP
>>>          addresses.  IP address MAY be selected from the range 127/8 for
>>>          IPv4, for IPv6 - from the range 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104.
>>>
>>>          TTL: MUST be set to 1 to ensure that the BFD packet is not
>>>          routed within the L3 underlay network.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think we have added some text to address Sridhar comments on why TTL
>>> MUST be 1 and dest IP address MUST be 127/8 range. I see that text is
>>> missing now.
>>>
>> GIM>> My apologies that I've missed to include the text from another
>> discussion thread. I believe the following would be complete:
>>           TTL or Hop Limit: MUST be set to 1 to ensure that the BFD
>>          packet is not routed within the Layer 3 underlay network.  This
>>          addresses the scenario when the inner IP destination address is
>>          of VXLAN gateway and there is a router in underlay which
>>          removes the VXLAN header, then it is possible to route the
>>          packet as VXLAN  gateway address is routable address.
>>
>
> [SPK] This text looks good.
>
>>
>>> Section 5.1:
>>> For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified
>>>    using the following three-tuples of fields of the inner header: the
>>>    source IP, the destination IP, and the source UDP port number present
>>>    in the IP header carried by the payload of the packet in VXLAN
>>>    encapsulation.  If BFD packet is received with non-zero Your
>>> Discriminator, then BFD session MUST be demultiplexed only with Your
>>>    Discriminator as the key.
>>>
>>> Just with 3 tuple we will not be able to demux packet. We need to
>>> consider VNI as well if we have multiple BFD session between same pair of
>>> VTEP.
>>>
>> GIM>> This is one of comments from Carlos we need to address. Your
>> comment have helped me to form the question:
>>
>> What is the goal running multiple BFD sessions between the pair of VTEPs?
>>
>>
> [SPK] The goal of the multiple BFD session is to ensure check liveliness
> of VXLAN tunnel. There is already a good amount of debate on this topic
> that do we really need that? As per RFC 5884 we are running BFD per LSP and
> we might hit scale issues there too. I think it is up to operator to decide
> how they want to use multiple BFD session per VXLAN tunnel. It could be
> possible that BFD session with special VNI is run at aggressive interval
> where as MAY have multiple BFD sessions for different VNI at a sedate
> interval, for that matter they could be running in demand mode as well (run
> P/F sequence only when there is no data following for that VNI). As WG if
> we think running multiple BFD session make sense then we might need to add
> appropriate text.
>
> If the goal is to monitor per VNI, then the following text should describe
>> the demultiplexing of the initial BFD Control packet:
>>    Demultiplexing of IP BFD packet has been defined in Section 3 of
>>    [RFC5881].  Since multiple BFD sessions may be running between two
>>    VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BFD
>>    packets to the proper session.  For demultiplexing packets with Your
>>    Discriminator equal to 0, a BFD session MUST be identified using the
>>    logical link over which the BFD Control packet is received.  In the
>>    case of VXLAN, the VNI number identifies that logical link.  If BFD
>>    packet is received with non-zero Your Discriminator, then BFD session
>>    MUST be demultiplexed only with Your Discriminator as the key.
>>
>
> [SPK]  I think this text for multiple BFD session between same pair of
> VTEPs for multiple VNI makes sense only if as WG we think that could be use
> case.
>
> Would there be need to run multiple BFD sessions with the same VNI number?
>>
>
> [SPK] IMHO we should not allow multiple BFD session for the same VNI.
>
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Santosh P K
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 4:27 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dinesh, thank you for your help, much appreciated.
>>>> Hi Joel and Sridhar,
>>>> could you please check if the updated text on the inner Ethernet frame
>>>> addressed your concern.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 2:25 PM Dinesh Dutt <didutt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Looks god to me Greg. Thank you for your hard work in this,
>>>>>
>>>>> Dinesh
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 9:25 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Dinesh, Joel, Sridhar, et al.,
>>>>>> much appreciate the help you've given me sharing your expertise. I
>>>>>> hope that the updates you will find in the attached diff and the working
>>>>>> copy of the draft be closer to the acceptable solution for VTEP-VTEP BFD.
>>>>>> Please note, that I'll shortly start a new discussion thread to address one
>>>>>> of Carlos's questions on the ambiguity of the text on multiple concurrent
>>>>>> sessions between the same pair of VTEPs.
>>>>>> Please review the changes to Sections 4 and 6 and share your
>>>>>> feedback, suggestions, and questions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 6:03 PM Dinesh Dutt <didutt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 5:56 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Dinesh,
>>>>>>>> thank you for your expedient detailed response.
>>>>>>>> I believe that the ability to run BFD session up to a tenant
>>>>>>>> (VTEP-VTEP-tenant or tenant-tenant) was never in jeopardy from this
>>>>>>>> specification.
>>>>>>>> I'm trying to provide precise specification on what can be used ad
>>>>>>>> the destination MAC and IP addresses in the inner frame/packet as I believe
>>>>>>>> that likely will help to avoid interoperability issues.
>>>>>>>> I'm interested to learn some more about the "martian checking"
>>>>>>>> function. As you know, martian addresses have been used as destination IP
>>>>>>>> address in LSP Ping and BFD over MPLS LSP and PW. I haven't heard that any
>>>>>>>> silicon feature caused problems for operators using these tools.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting. I didn't know this aspect of use with MPLS ping. Did
>>>>>>> those packets ever go through a firewall though? In any case, maybe suggest
>>>>>>> the use of those addresses with a statement that this is how LSP does it,
>>>>>>> but that other MAC/IP pairs are possible as long as the conditions of the
>>>>>>> endpoint owning the MAC/IP was honored.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dinesh
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 3:59 PM Dinesh Dutt <didutt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Greg,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That we agree on the problem definition is the first step forward.
>>>>>>>>> Your original document had my cases covered and so I was surprised by the
>>>>>>>>> track this thread took. It doesn't matter, we're back on track.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My recommendation is to not worry about specifying the precise
>>>>>>>>> MAC/IP address used in the inner header. The addresses chosen MUST ensure
>>>>>>>>> that the packet is trapped to the control plane of the VTEP and not escape
>>>>>>>>> to the tenant if the BFD is to the VTEP. Any solution MUST also not
>>>>>>>>> preclude the use of the BFD by tenant systems for that VNI. There are many
>>>>>>>>> ways an implementer can choose to implement this. For example, the inner
>>>>>>>>> MAC address is whatever the VTEP implementer would return if ARP'd for the
>>>>>>>>> IP address used in the inner header in the given VNI. The implementer can
>>>>>>>>> pick a fixed MAC address, one that they own etc. Multiple BFD sessions can
>>>>>>>>> be run for testing path connectivity on more than one VNIs. Limits should
>>>>>>>>> be in place to avoid overwhelming the receiver with BFD messages (you had
>>>>>>>>> words about this in your currently published draft).  If the VNI is
>>>>>>>>> irrelevant in the test i.e. only the VXLAN pipe at the VTEP is being
>>>>>>>>> tested. the user can use any VNI active on the VTEP on which the VTEP owns
>>>>>>>>> an IP address.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm concerned about the use of 127/8 address only because of
>>>>>>>>> firewalls or implementations that drop packets with these addresses as
>>>>>>>>> either the source or destination. For example, on many merchant silicon, I
>>>>>>>>> don't believe you can turn off martian checking and drops *only* for
>>>>>>>>> VXLAN-encapsulated BFD packets. I don't know what the Linux kernel does
>>>>>>>>> today on such packets, for example (or Hyper-V). I'd like a solution that
>>>>>>>>> doesn't demand additional or new chip functionality or require additional
>>>>>>>>> middle-box hole punch.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why do you feel you MUST to specify the MAC/IP address on the
>>>>>>>>> inner packet? What am I missing here?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dinesh
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 3:04 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Dinesh,
>>>>>>>>>> what do you see as the way forward? I agree, that the proposed
>>>>>>>>>> text doesn't work for multi-VNI concurrent monitoring because these VNIs
>>>>>>>>>> are tenant's VNIs. And in that case, we need to specify another mechanism
>>>>>>>>>> to trap the BFD Control packet at VTEP. It seems that VTEP's Ethernet
>>>>>>>>>> address must be used as the destination MAC address in the inner Ethernet
>>>>>>>>>> frame. The destination IP address may be either VTEP's address of martian
>>>>>>>>>> (I do prefer martian). Let me give it  try:
>>>>>>>>>> NEW TEXT:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To monitor continuity of the path between two VTEPs, an operator
>>>>>>>>>> MUST select a VNI number to be used as Management VNI. Management VNI
>>>>>>>>>> number MUST NOT be one of the tenant's VNIs to prevent sending VXLAN
>>>>>>>>>> packets received on Management VNI to a tenant. VNI number 1 is RECOMMENDED
>>>>>>>>>> as the default for Management VNI. [Ed.note: What we set the Destination
>>>>>>>>>> MAC to? Can it be invalid MAC that MUST be ignored on receipt?]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If an implementation supports concurrent monitoring of multiple
>>>>>>>>>> VNIs, then the value of VNI number MAY be one of tenant's VNIs. The
>>>>>>>>>> destination MAC address in the inner Ethernet frame encapsulating BFD
>>>>>>>>>> Control packet MUST be MAC associated with the remote VTEP.
>>>>>>>>>> The destination IP address of the inner IP packet MUST be
>>>>>>>>>> selected from the range 127/8 for IPv4, and for IPv6 from the range
>>>>>>>>>> 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104. The TTL value in the inner IP header MUST be set
>>>>>>>>>> to 1.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Aug 4, 2019 at 9:07 AM Dinesh Dutt <didutt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Greg,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your clarifications. I agree with your sentiment on
>>>>>>>>>>> why you're running BFD over VXLAN between VTEPs. I wasn't arguing against
>>>>>>>>>>> it at all. All I was saying was pointing to the limitations of the use of
>>>>>>>>>>> management VNI. I spoke to some operators who're running EVPN and mentioned
>>>>>>>>>>> the discussion on this thread. They concur that they're using specific VNIs
>>>>>>>>>>> to test connectivity over that VNI between VTEPs to ensure misconfiguration
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't lead to blackholes. My statements are based in real world operator
>>>>>>>>>>> experience. And I was providing language that ensured packets didn't leak
>>>>>>>>>>> across to tenants when they were destined to VTEPs.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Dinesh
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 3, 2019 at 10:34 AM Greg Mirsky <
>>>>>>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Dinesh,
>>>>>>>>>>>> many thanks for your detailed updates on how some
>>>>>>>>>>>> implementations process VXLAN header and the inner Ethernet frame. These
>>>>>>>>>>>> are very helpful in achieving the workable solution for the problem at hand.
>>>>>>>>>>>> You've noted that a path between VTEPs may be monitored in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> underlay network by merely establishing a BFD session. That is true, but by
>>>>>>>>>>>> using BFD with VXLAN encapsulation between the pair of VTEPs we are
>>>>>>>>>>>> extending the OAM domain by including, to some extent, VXLAN forwarding
>>>>>>>>>>>> engine. Abstract in RFC 5880 defines the goal and the domain in which BFD
>>>>>>>>>>>> protocol can detect a fault as:
>>>>>>>>>>>>    This document describes a protocol intended to detect faults
>>>>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>    bidirectional path between two forwarding engines, including
>>>>>>>>>>>>    interfaces, data link(s), and to the extent possible the
>>>>>>>>>>>> forwarding
>>>>>>>>>>>>    engines themselves, with potentially very low latency.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thus, BFD in the underlay will exercise a part of IP forwarding
>>>>>>>>>>>> engine while BFD with VXLAN encapsulation, ran between the same pair of
>>>>>>>>>>>> VTEPs, extends the OAM domain. At the same time, defining BFD between
>>>>>>>>>>>> tenant systems in outside the goal of this specification. But VXLAN BFD
>>>>>>>>>>>> session between VTEPs may be useful in monitoring e2e path between tenants,
>>>>>>>>>>>> as described in the update to -07:
>>>>>>>>>>>>    At the same time, a service layer BFD session may be used
>>>>>>>>>>>> between the
>>>>>>>>>>>>    tenants of VTEPs IP1 and IP2 to provide end-to-end fault
>>>>>>>>>>>> management.
>>>>>>>>>>>>    In such case, for VTEPs BFD control packets of that session
>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>    indistinguishable from data packets.  If end-to-end defect
>>>>>>>>>>>> detection
>>>>>>>>>>>>    is realized as the set of concatenated OAM domains, e.g.,
>>>>>>>>>>>> VM1-1 - IP1
>>>>>>>>>>>>    -- IP2 - VM2-1, then the BFD session over VXLAN between
>>>>>>>>>>>> VTEPs SHOULD
>>>>>>>>>>>>    follow the procedures described in Section 6.8.17 [RFC5880].
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've attached the current working version of the draft.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 5:43 PM Dinesh Dutt <didutt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What I mean is "How do you infer that it excludes the case I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>> talking about?".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dinesh
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 5:41 PM Dinesh Dutt <didutt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The abstract reads this: "
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This document describes the use of the Bidirectional Forwarding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    Detection (BFD) protocol in point-to-point Virtual eXtensible Local
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    Area Network (VXLAN) tunnels forming up an overlay network."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How do you infer what you said?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dinesh
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 5:38 PM Joel M. Halpern <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am going by what the draft says its purpose is.  If you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Dinesh) want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the draft to fulfill a different purpose, then either ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the chairs to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> take this draft back to the WG, or write a separate draft.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As currently written, the behavior Greg proposed meets the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needs, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does so in a way that is consistent with VxLAN.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yours,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/2/2019 8:30 PM, Dinesh Dutt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > What is the stated purpose of this BFD session? The VTEP
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reachability is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > determined by the underlay, I don't need VXLAN-encaped
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> packet for that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Do we agree?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > If I want to test the VXLAN encap/decap functionality
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alone, picking any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > single VNI maybe fine. But is this all any network
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operator wants? Why?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > In what situations has this been a problem? I suspect
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operators also
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > want to verify path continuity over a specific VNI. If you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say this is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > not defined by the document, I disagree because the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current version
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > talks about controlling the number of BFD sessions between
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the VTEPs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > (see section 3). More importantly, this is a real problem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that operators
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > like to verify.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Dinesh
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 5:08 PM Joel M. Halpern <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jmh@joelhalpern.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     What is special about the management VNI is precisely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that it is NOT a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     tenant VNI.  The VxLAN administration does know how it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> allocates VNI to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     tenants, and which VNI it has allocated.  In contrast,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it does not know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     which IP addresses or MAC adddresses teh tenant is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using or may plan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     to use.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     Yours,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     Joel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     On 8/2/2019 6:41 PM, Dinesh Dutt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      > The assumption of an IP address within any VNI is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suspect that way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      > What's special about a single VNI, the management
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VNI? The VTEP IP
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      > address does not belong in reality in any VNI...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      > Dinesh
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      > On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 3:17 PM Joel M. Halpern
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      > <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jmh@joelhalpern.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     Your response seems to miss two points:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     First, the problem you describe is not what the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> document says
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     solving.  To the degree it discusses it at all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the document
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     says "
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >       In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     most cases, a single BFD session is sufficient
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the given
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     VTEP to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     monitor the reachability of a remote VTEP,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regardless of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     number of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     VNIs in common. "
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     Second, you assume the existence of an IP
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> address for a VTEP
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     within a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     VNI.  As with the MAC address, the VTEP does
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not have an IP
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     address
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     within the VNI.  Some implementations may have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> created such a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     thing,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     the general construct, as defined to date, does
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not support such.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     In short, you are requiring a behavior that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> violates the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     architectural
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     structure of overlay / underlay separation, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> common
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     usage.  And you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     are doing so to support a use case that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working group has not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     indicated in the document as important.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     Yours,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     Joel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     On 8/2/2019 5:01 PM, Dinesh Dutt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      > Joel,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      > You understood correctly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      > The VNIs may not share fate due to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> misconfiguration. And I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     strongly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      > suspect someone will want to use BFD for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that because its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     checking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      > path continuity as stated by the draft. As
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> long as there's a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     valid IP
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      > (because it's BFD) owned by the VTEP in that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VNI, you can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     use BFD in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      > that VNI. Thats all that you need to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dictate.  That IP address
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     has a MAC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      > address and you can use that on the inner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> frame. That is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     all normal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      > VXLAN processing. The outer IP is always
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that of the VTEP.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      > Dinesh
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      > On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 11:03 AM Joel M.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halpern
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jmh@joelhalpern.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jmh@joelhalpern.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      > <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jmh@joelhalpern.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jmh@joelhalpern.com>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     If I am reading your various emails
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly Dinesh
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     (and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     may have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     missed something) you are trying to use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the MAC address
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     because you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     to be able to send these BFD packets
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over arbitrary VNI to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     monitor the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     VNI.  That is not a requirement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> identified in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     document.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     It is not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     even a problem I understand, since all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the VNI between an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     ingress and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     egress VTEP share fate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     Yours,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     Joel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     On 8/2/2019 1:44 PM, Dinesh Dutt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      > Thanks for verifying this. On Linux
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and hardware
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     routers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     that I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     aware
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      > of (Cisco circa 2012 and Cumulus),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the physical MAC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     address is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     reused
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      > across the VNIs on the VTEP. Did you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> check on a non-VMW
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     device?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     This is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      > more for my own curiosity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      > To address the general case, can we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not define a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     well-known (or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     reserve
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      > one) unicast MAC address for use with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VTEP? If the MAC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     address is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      > configurable in BFD command, this can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be moot.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      > Dinesh
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      > On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 10:27 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Santosh P K
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      > <santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail...com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail...com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail...com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail...com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >     I have cross checked point raised
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about MAC address
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     usage. It is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >     possible that tenant could be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using physical MAC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     address and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     when a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >     packet comes with valid VNI with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a MAC address
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     that is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     used by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >     tenant then packet will be sent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to that tenant.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     This rules
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     out the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >     fact that we could use physical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MAC address as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     inner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     MAC to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     ensure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >     packets get terminated at VTEP
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> itself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >     Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >     Santosh P K
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >     On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 11:00 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Santosh P K
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >     <santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail...com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail...com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail...com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail...com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:santosh.pallagatti@gmail.com>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >     wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >         Joel,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             Thanks for your inputs. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> checked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     implementation within
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >         Vmware. Perhaps I should have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been more clear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     about MAC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     address
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >         space while checking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> internally. I will cross
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     check again for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >         the same and get back on this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >         Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >         Santosh P K
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >         On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 10:54
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AM Joel M.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     Halpern
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >         <jmh@joelhalpern.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <jmh@joelhalpern...com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com> <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jmh@joelhalpern.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jmh@joelhalpern.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jmh@joelhalpern.com>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com> <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jmh@joelhalpern.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jmh@joelhalpern.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jmh@joelhalpern.com>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             Sorry to ask a stupid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question.  Whose
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     implementation?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             The reason I ask is that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as far as I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     can tell,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     since the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             tenant does not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             have any control access
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the VTEP,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     there is no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     reason for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             the VTEP to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             have a MAC address in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tenant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     space.  Yes, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     device has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             a physical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             MAC address.  But the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tenant could well be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     using that MAC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             address.  Yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             they would be violating
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Ethernet spec.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     But the whole
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             point of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             segregation is not to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care about such
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     issues.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             On the other hand, if you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tell me that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     the VMWare
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             implementation has an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             Ethernet address that is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> part of the tenant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     space, well,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             they made up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             this particular game.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             Yours,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             Joel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             On 7/31/2019 1:44 PM,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Santosh P K wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              > I have checked with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> implementation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     in data
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     path.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     When we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             receive a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              > packet with valid VNI
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then lookup
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     for MAC will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     happen and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             it is VTEP own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              > MAC then it will be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trapped to control
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     plane for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             processing. I think we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              > can have following
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> options
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              > 1. Optional managment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VNI
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              > 2. Mandatory inner MAC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> set to VTEP mac
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              > 3. Inner IP TTL set to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1 to avoid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     forwarding of packet
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             via inner IP
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              > address.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              > Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              > Thansk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              > Santosh P K
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              > On Wed, Jul 31, 2019
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at 9:20 AM Greg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     Mirsky
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             <gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com> <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              > <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com> <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >     Hi Dinesh,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >     thank you for your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consideration
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     proposal and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             questions. What
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >     would you see as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the scope of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     testing the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             connectivity for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >     specific VNI? If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     tenant-to-tenant, then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     VTEPs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             will treat these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >     packets as regular
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> user frames. More
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     likely, these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             could be Layer 2
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >     OAM, e.g. CCM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> frames. The reason
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     to use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     127/8 for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             IPv4, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104 for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     IPv6 is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     to safeguard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             from leaking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >     Ethernet frames
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with BFD Control
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     packet
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     to a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     tenant.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >     You've suggested
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using a MAC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     address to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     trap the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             control packet at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >     VTEP. What that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> address could be? We
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     had proposed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             using the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >     dedicated MAC and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VTEP's MAC and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     both
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     raised
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     concerns
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             among VXLAN
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >     experts. The idea
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of using
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     Management
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     VNI may
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     be more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             acceptable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >     based on its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> similarity to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     practice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     of using
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             Management VLAN.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >     Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >     Greg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >     On Wed, Jul 31,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2019 at 12:03 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     Dinesh
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     Dutt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             <didutt@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:didutt@gmail.com> <mailto:didutt@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:didutt@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:didutt@gmail.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didutt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:didutt@gmail.com <mailto:didutt@gmail.com>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     <mailto:didutt@gmail.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didutt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:didutt@gmail.com <mailto:didutt@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:didutt@gmail.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didutt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:didutt@gmail.com <mailto:didutt@gmail.com>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >     <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didutt@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:didutt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:didutt@gmail.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didutt@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     <mailto:didutt@gmail.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didutt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:didutt@gmail.com <mailto:didutt@gmail.com>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:didutt@gmail.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didutt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:didutt@gmail.com <mailto:didutt@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     <mailto:didutt@gmail.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didutt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:didutt@gmail.com <mailto:didutt@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >         Hi Greg,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >         As long as the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inner MAC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     address is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     such
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             packet is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >         trapped to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CPU, it should be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     fine for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     use as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             an inner MAC is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >         it not?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stating that is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     better than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     trying to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             force a management
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >         VNI. What if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone wants
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     to test
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     connectivity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             on a specific
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >         VNI? I would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not pick a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     loopback IP
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     address for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             this since that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >         address range
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is host/node local
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     only. Is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     there a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             reason you're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >         not using the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VTEP IP as the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     inner IP
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     address ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >         Dinesh
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >         On Wed, Jul
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 31, 2019 at 5:48 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     Greg Mirsky
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >         <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com> <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>>> <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com> <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             Dear All,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             thank you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for your comments,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     suggestions on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             this issue,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             probably
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     challenging
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     for this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             specification. In the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             course of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our discussions,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     we've agreed to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             abandon the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             request to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> allocate the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     dedicated MAC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     address
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             to be used as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> destination MAC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     address in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     the inner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             Ethernet frame.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             Also,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> earlier using VNI
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     0 was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     changed from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             mandatory to one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> options an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     implementation may
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     offer to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             an operator.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             The most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     discussion was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     whether
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     VTEP's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             MAC address
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             might be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used as the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     destination MAC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     address
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             in the inner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             Ethernet
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> frame. As I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     recall it, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     comments
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             from VXLAN
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             experts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equally split
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     with one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     for it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     and one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             against. Hence
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             I would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like to propose
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     a new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     text to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     resolve
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             the issue. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             idea is to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     operator select
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     Management
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             VNI and use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             that VNI
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in VXLAN
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     encapsulation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     of BFD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             Control packets:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             NEW TEXT:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >                 An
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operator MUST
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     select a VNI
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     number to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             be used as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Management VNI. VXLAN
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     packet for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             Management VNI MUST NOT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >                 be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sent to a tenant. VNI
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     number 1 is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             RECOMMENDED as the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  default for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     Management VNI.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             With that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> new text, what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     can be the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     value of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             the destination
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             MAC in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inner Ethernet? I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     tend to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     believe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             that it can be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             anything
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and ignored by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     reciever VTEP.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             Also, if the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             trapping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is based on VNI
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     number, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             destination IP address
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inner IP packet
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     can from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >     the range
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             127/8 for IPv4,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             and for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IPv6 from the range
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00:0/104. And
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             lastly,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the TTL to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     set to 1 (no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     change here).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             Much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> appreciate your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >     comments,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >     questions, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >             suggestions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             Best
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >             Greg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >              >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >      >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>