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From: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 23:00:37 -0800
Message-ID: <CA+-tSzzgKyfXzE+=eVLz7B3u1X_HFahQ6GCFTbL+-rfjsR03uA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: WGLC comments on draft-ietf-bfd-vxlan
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Cc: rtg-bfd@ietf.org, nvo3@ietf.org
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Hi Greg,

Please see inline prefixed with [ag2].

Thanks,
Anoop

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 9:45 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Anoop,
> thank you for the expedient response. I am glad that some of my responses
> have addressed your concerns. Please find followup notes in-line tagged
> GIM2>>. I've attached the diff to highlight the updates applied in the
> working version. Let me know if these are acceptable changes.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 12:30 PM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Greg,
>>
>> Please see inline prefixed with [ag].
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Anoop
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 11:34 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Anoop,
>>> many thanks for the thorough review and detailed comments. Please find
>>> my answers, this time for real, in-line tagged GIM>>.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Greg
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 1:58 AM Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here are my comments.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Anoop
>>>>
>>>> ==
>>>>
>>>> Philosophical
>>>>
>>>> Since VXLAN is not an IETF standard, should we be defining a standard
>>>> for running BFD on it?  Should we define BFD over Geneve instead which is
>>>> the official WG selection?  Is that going to be a separate document?
>>>> GIM>> IS-IS is not on the Standard track either but that had not
>>>> prevented IETF from developing tens of standard track RFCs using RFC 1142
>>>> as the normative reference until RFC 7142 re-classified it as historical. A
>>>> similar path was followed with IS-IS-TE by publishing RFC 3784 until it was
>>>> obsoleted by RFC 5305 four years later. I understand that Down Reference,
>>>> i.e., using informational RFC as the normative reference, is not an unusual
>>>> situation.
>>>>
>>>
>> [ag] OK.  I'm not an expert on this part so unless someone else that is
>> an expert (chairs, AD?) can comment on it, I'll just let it go.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Technical
>>>>
>>>> Section 1:
>>>>
>>>> This part needs to be rewritten:
>>>> >>>
>>>> The individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or
>>>> they could be in a single Layer 2 network. The VXLAN segments/overlays are
>>>> overlaid on top of Layer 3 network. A VM can communicate with another VM
>>>> only if they are on the same VXLAN segment.
>>>> >>>
>>>> It's hard to parse and, given IRB,
>>>>
>>> GIM>> Would the following text be acceptable:
>>> OLD TEXT:
>>>    VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting
>>>    virtualized hosts, which may be spread across multiple racks.  The
>>>    individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
>>>    could be in a single Layer 2 network.  The VXLAN segments/overlays
>>>    are overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.
>>> NEW TEXT:
>>> VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting virtualized
>>> hosts of a tenant. VXLAN addresses requirements of the Layer 2 and
>>> Layer 3 data center network infrastructure in the presence of VMs in
>>> a multi-tenant environment, discussed in section 3 [RFC7348], by
>>>  providing Layer 2 overlay scheme on a Layer 3 network.
>>>
>>
>> [ag] This is a lot better.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>  A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on the same
>>> VXLAN segment.
>>>>
>>>> the last sentence above is wrong.
>>>>
>>> GIM>> Section 4 in RFC 7348 states:
>>> Only VMs within the same VXLAN segment can communicate with each other.
>>>
>>
>> [ag] VMs on different segments can communicate using routing/IRB, so even
>> RFC 7348 is wrong.  Perhaps the text should be modified so say -- "In the
>> absence of a router in the overlay, a VM can communicate...".
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Section 3:
>>>> >>>
>>>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
>>>> may not support L3.
>>>> >>>
>>>> Are you suggesting most deployments have VMs with no IP
>>>> addresses/configuration?
>>>>
>>> GIM>> Would re-word as follows:
>>> OLD TEXT:
>>>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
>>>  may not support L3.
>>> NEW TEXT:
>>> Deployments may have VMs with only L2 capabilities that do not support
>>> L3.
>>>
>>
>> [ag] I still don't understand this.  What does it mean for a VM to not
>> support L3?  No IP address, no default GW, something else?
>>
> GIM2>> VM communicates with its VTEP which, in turn, originates VXLAN
> tunnel. VM is not required to have IP address as it is VTEP's IP address
> that VM's MAC is associated with. As for gateway, RFC 7348 discusses VXLAN
> gateway as the device that forwards traffice between VXLAN and non-VXLAN
> domains. Considering all that, would the following change be acceptable:
> OLD TEXT:
>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that
>  may not support L3.
> NEW TEXT:
>  Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities and not have an
> IP address assigned.
>

[ag2] Do you have a reference for this (i.e. that most deployments have VMs
without an IP address)?  Normally I would think VMs would have an IP
address.  It's just that they are segregated into segments and, without an
intervening router, they are restricted to communicate only within their
subnet.

>
>>
>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> Having a hierarchical OAM model helps localize faults though it
>>>> requires additional consideration.
>>>> >>>
>>>> What are the additional considerations?
>>>>
>>> GIM>> For example, coordination of BFD intervals across the OAM layers.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> [ag] Can we mention them in the draft?
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> Would be useful to add a reference to RFC 8293 in case the reader would
>>>> like to know more about service nodes.
>>>>
>>> GIM>> I have to admit that I don't find how RFC 8293  A Framework for
>>> Multicast in Network Virtualization over Layer 3 is related to this
>>> document. Please help with additional reference to the text of the
>>> document.
>>>
>>
>> [ag] The RFC discusses the use of service nodes which is mentioned here.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> Section 4
>>>> >>>
>>>> Separate BFD sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1 and
>>>> IP2) for monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).
>>>> >>>
>>>> IMO, the document should mention that this could lead to scaling issues
>>>> given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNIs.  Additionally, we
>>>> should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not even exist on the
>>>> destination VTEP.  Finally, what is the benefit of doing this?  There may
>>>> be certain corner cases where it's useful (vs a single BFD session between
>>>> the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be good to explain what those are.
>>>>
>>> GIM>> Will add text in the Security Considerations section that VTEPs
>>> should have limit on number of BFD sessions.
>>>
>>
>> [ag] I was hoping for two things:
>> - A mention about the scalability issue right where per-VNI BFD is
>> discussed.  (Not sure why that is a security issue/consideration.)
>>
> GIM2>> I've added the following sentense in both places:
> The implementation SHOULD have a reasonable upper bound on the number of
> BFD sessions that can be created between the same pair of VTEPs.
>

[ag2] What is the criteria for determining what is reasonable?


> - What is the benefit of running BFD per VNI between a pair of VTEPs?
>>
> GIM2>> An alternative would be to run CFM between VMs, if there's the need
> to monitor liveliness of the particular VM. Again, this is optional.
>

[ag2] I'm not sure how running per-VNI BFD between the VTEPs allows one to
monitor the liveliness of VMs.


>
>>
>>>
>>>> Sections 5.1 and 6.1
>>>>
>>>> In 5.1 we have
>>>> >>>
>>>> The inner MAC frame carrying the BFD payload has the
>>>> following format:
>>>> ... Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP. Destination IP: IP
>>>> address of the terminating VTEP.
>>>> >>>
>>>>
>>>> In 6.1 we have
>>>> >>>
>>>>
>>>> Since multiple BFD sessions may be running between two
>>>> VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF
>>>>
>>>> packets to the proper session.  The procedure for demultiplexing
>>>> packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[RFC5880 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880>].
>>>>
>>>> *For such packets, the BFD session MUST be identified*
>>>>
>>>> *using the inner headers, i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
>>>> present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN*
>>>>
>>>> *encapsulated packet.*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> How does this work if the source IP and dest IP are the same as
>>>> specified in 5.1?
>>>>
>>> GIM>> You're right, Destination and source IP addresses likely are the
>>> same in this case. Will add that the source UDP port number, along with the
>>> pair of IP addresses, MUST be used to demux received BFD control packets.
>>> Would you agree that will be sufficient?
>>>
>>
>> [ag] Yes, I think that should work.
>>
>>>
>>>> Editorial
>>>>
>>>
>> [ag] Agree with all comments on this section.
>>
>>>
>>>> - Terminology section should be renamed to acronyms.
>>>>
>>> GIM>> Accepted
>>>
>>>> - Document would benefit from a thorough editorial scrub, but maybe
>>>> that will happen once it gets to the RFC editor.
>>>>
>>> GIM>> Will certainly have helpful comments from ADs and RFC editor.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Section 1
>>>> >>>
>>>> "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348
>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7348>]. provides an encapsulation
>>>> scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to communicate in a data center
>>>> network.
>>>> >>>
>>>> This is not accurate.  VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay to
>>>> decouple the address space of the attached hosts from that of the network.
>>>>
>>> GIM>> Thank you for the suggested text. Will change as follows:
>>> OLD TEXT:
>>>    "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348].  provides
>>>    an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to
>>>    communicate in a data center network.
>>> NEW TEXT:
>>>  "Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network" (VXLAN) [RFC7348].  provides
>>>    an encapsulation scheme that allows building an overlay network by
>>>   decoupling the address space of the attached virtual hosts from that
>>> of the network.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Section 7
>>>>
>>>> VTEP's -> VTEPs
>>>>
>>> GIM>> Yes, thank you.
>>>
>>

--00000000000075e4cf057aae9cd0
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>Please see inline prefixed wit=
h [ag2].</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop<br><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at =
9:45 AM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>thank you for the=
 expedient=C2=A0response. I am glad that some=C2=A0of my responses have add=
ressed your concerns. Please find followup notes in-line tagged GIM2&gt;&gt=
;. I&#39;ve attached the diff to highlight the updates applied in the worki=
ng version. Let me know if these are acceptable changes.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 12:30 PM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:anoop@alumni.duke.edu" target=3D"_blank">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">Hi Greg,<div><br></div><div>Please see inline prefixed with [ag].<=
/div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop<br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 11:34 AM Greg Mirsky &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Anoop,<div>many thanks for th=
e thorough review and detailed comments. Please find my answers, this time =
for real, in-line tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</di=
v><div>Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, No=
v 8, 2018 at 1:58 AM Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anoop@alumni.duke=
.edu" target=3D"_blank">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Here=
 are my comments.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop</div><di=
v><br></div><div>=3D=3D</div><div><br></div><div>Philosophical</div><div><b=
r></div><div>Since VXLAN is not an IETF standard, should we be defining a s=
tandard for running BFD on it?=C2=A0 Should we define BFD over Geneve inste=
ad which is the official WG selection?=C2=A0 Is that going to be a separate=
 document?<br></div><div><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial, =E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93, Microsoft Yahei, Lucida Grande, Verdana, Lucida, Helvetica, sans=
-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; IS-IS is not on the Stan=
dard track either but that had not prevented IETF from developing tens of s=
tandard track RFCs using RFC 1142 as the normative reference until RFC 7142=
 re-classified it as historical. A similar path was followed with IS-IS-TE =
by publishing RFC 3784 until it was obsoleted by RFC 5305 four years later.=
 I understand that Down Reference, i.e., using informational RFC as the nor=
mative reference, is not an unusual situation.</span></font></div></div></b=
lockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] OK.=C2=A0 I&#39;m not an exper=
t on this part so unless someone else that is an expert (chairs, AD?) can c=
omment on it, I&#39;ll just let it go.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Technical</div><div><=
br></div><div>Section 1:</div><div><br></div><div>This part needs to be rew=
ritten:</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fo=
nt-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">The
individual racks may be part of a different Layer 3 network, or they
could be in a single Layer 2 network.  The VXLAN segments/overlays
are overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.

A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on the same
VXLAN segment. </span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>It&#39;s hard t=
o parse and, given IRB, </div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Would the=
 following text be acceptable:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnecting</div><div=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0virtualized hosts, which may be spread across multiple racks.=
=C2=A0 The</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0individual racks may be part of a differe=
nt Layer 3 network, or they</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0could be in a single Lay=
er 2 network.=C2=A0 The VXLAN segments/overlays</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0are =
overlaid on top of Layer 3 network.</div></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">VXLAN is typically deployed in data centers interconnect=
ing virtualized=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">hosts of a tenant. VX=
LAN addresses requirements of the Layer 2 and=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote">Layer 3 data center network infrastructure in the presence of VMs =
in=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">a multi-tenant environment, discus=
sed in section 3 [RFC7348], by</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=C2=A0provid=
ing Layer 2 overlay scheme on a Layer 3 network.</div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>[ag] This is a lot better.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div><div>=C2=A0<span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-=
space:pre-wrap">A VM can communicate with another VM only if they are on th=
e same</span></div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;fo=
nt-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">VXLAN segment. </span><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>the last sentenc=
e above is wrong.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Section 4 in RFC=
 7348 states:</div><div>Only VMs within the same VXLAN segment can communic=
ate with=C2=A0each other.<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] VMs o=
n different segments can communicate using routing/IRB, so even RFC 7348 is=
 wrong.=C2=A0 Perhaps the text should be modified so say -- &quot;In the ab=
sence of a router in the overlay, a VM can communicate...&quot;.</div><div>=
=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><div><br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div>Section 3:</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">=
Most deployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that</span></div><=
span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">may not support L3.</span><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>A=
re you suggesting most deployments have VMs with no IP addresses/configurat=
ion?</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Would re-word as follows:</di=
v><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0Most deployments will have VMs with only L=
2 capabilities that</div><div>=C2=A0may not support L3.</div><div>NEW TEXT:=
</div><div>Deployments may have VMs with only L2 capabilities that do not s=
upport L3.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div>=
</div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] I sti=
ll don&#39;t understand this.=C2=A0 What does it mean for a VM to not suppo=
rt L3?=C2=A0 No IP address, no default GW, something else?</div></div></div=
></div></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; VM communicates with its VTEP which, =
in turn, originates VXLAN tunnel. VM is not required to have IP address as =
it is VTEP&#39;s IP address that VM&#39;s MAC is associated with. As for ga=
teway, RFC 7348 discusses VXLAN gateway as the device that forwards traffic=
e between VXLAN and non-VXLAN domains. Considering all that, would the foll=
owing change be acceptable:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0Most d=
eployments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities that</div><div>=C2=A0may=
 not support L3.</div></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0Most deploy=
ments will have VMs with only L2 capabilities and not have an IP address as=
signed.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag2]=
 Do you have a reference for this (i.e. that most deployments have VMs with=
out an IP address)?=C2=A0 Normally I would think VMs would have an IP addre=
ss.=C2=A0 It&#39;s just that they are segregated into segments and, without=
 an intervening router, they are restricted to communicate only within thei=
r subnet.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
/div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:1=
3.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">Having a hierarchical OAM model helps locali=
ze
faults though it requires additional consideration.</span><br></div><div>&g=
t;&gt;&gt;</div><div>What are the additional considerations?</div></div></b=
lockquote><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&quot;,&quot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Luc=
ida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; For example, coordinat=
ion of BFD intervals across the OAM layers.=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0</div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>[ag] Can we mention them in the draft?</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Would be useful=
 to add a reference to RFC 8293 in case the reader would like to know more =
about service nodes.</div></div></blockquote><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&quot;,&qu=
ot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Lucida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:14px">=
GIM&gt;&gt; I have to admit that I don&#39;t find how RFC 8293=C2=A0=C2=A0A=
 Framework for Multicast in Network Virtualization over Layer 3 is related =
to this document. Please help with additional reference to the text of the =
document.=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] The RF=
C discusses the use of service nodes which is mentioned here.=C2=A0=C2=A0</=
div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Sec=
tion 4</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fon=
t-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">Separate BFD
sessions can be established between the VTEPs (IP1 and IP2) for
monitoring each of the VXLAN tunnels (VNI 100 and 200).</span><br></div><di=
v>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>IMO, the document should mention that this could l=
ead to scaling issues given that VTEPs can support well in excess of 4K VNI=
s.=C2=A0 Additionally, we should mention that with IRB, a given VNI may not=
 even exist on the destination VTEP.=C2=A0 Finally, what is the benefit of =
doing this?=C2=A0 There may be certain corner cases where it&#39;s useful (=
vs a single BFD session between the VTEPs for all VNIs) but it would be goo=
d to explain what those are.</div></div></blockquote><div><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93,&quot;Microsoft Yahei&q=
uot;,&quot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Verdana,Lucida,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:14px">GIM&gt;&gt; Will add text in the Security Considerations section th=
at VTEPs should have limit on number of BFD sessions.</span>=C2=A0</div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] I was hoping for two things:</div><div>- A =
mention about the scalability issue right where per-VNI BFD is discussed.=
=C2=A0 (Not sure why that is a security issue/consideration.)</div></div></=
div></div></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve added the following sente=
nse in both places:</div><div>The implementation SHOULD have a reasonable u=
pper bound on the number of BFD sessions that can be created between the sa=
me pair of VTEPs.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>[ag2] What is the criteria for determining what is reasonable?</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>- What is the =
benefit of running BFD per VNI between a pair of VTEPs?</div></div></div></=
div></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; An alternative would be to run CFM betwe=
en VMs, if there&#39;s the need to monitor liveliness of the particular VM.=
 Again, this is optional.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div>[ag2] I&#39;m not sure how running per-VNI BFD between the VTE=
Ps allows one to monitor the liveliness of VMs.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Sections 5.1 and 6.1</div><div><br></div=
><div>In 5.1 we have</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">=
The inner MAC frame carrying the BFD payload has the</span></div><div><span=
>following format:</span><br class=3D"m_-618924820585214784m_49438050311854=
43502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992508565=
gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"><span style=3D"=
color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-=
wrap">...
Source IP: IP address of the originating VTEP.
Destination IP: IP address of the terminating VTEP.</span><br class=3D"m_-6=
18924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305905=
075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-Apple-int=
erchange-newline"></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><br></div><div>In 6.1 w=
e have=C2=A0</div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><pre class=3D"m_-618924820585=
214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_330590507550317905=
8m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"fo=
nt-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:inline-block;bre=
ak-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Since multiple BFD sessions may be running=
 between two
VTEPs, there needs to be a mechanism for demultiplexing received BF</pre><p=
re class=3D"m_-618924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-401473185699=
7763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_212088904854707259=
7gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0=
px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">packets to the =
proper session.  The procedure for demultiplexing
packets with Your Discriminator equal to 0 is different from[<a href=3D"htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5880" title=3D"&quot;Bidirectional Forwarding D=
etection (BFD)&quot;" target=3D"_blank">RFC5880</a>].  </pre></div><div><pr=
e class=3D"m_-618924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997=
763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597=
gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0p=
x;display:inline-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>For such pack=
ets, the BFD session MUST be identified</b></pre></div><div><pre class=3D"m=
_-618924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-4014731856997763599m_3305=
905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048547072597gmail-newpag=
e" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:in=
line-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>using the inner headers, =
i.e., the source IP and the destination IP
present in the IP header carried by the payload of the VXLAN</b></pre></div=
><div><pre class=3D"m_-618924820585214784m_4943805031185443502gmail-m_-4014=
731856997763599m_3305905075503179058m_3738381183992508565gmail-m_2120889048=
547072597gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-=
bottom:0px;display:inline-block;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>enca=
psulated packet.</b></pre><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div>How does th=
is work if the source IP and dest IP are the same as specified in 5.1?</div=
></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; You&#39;re right, Destination and sour=
ce IP addresses likely are the same in this case. Will add that the source =
UDP port number, along with the pair of IP addresses, MUST be used to demux=
 received BFD control packets. Would you agree that will be sufficient?=C2=
=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] Yes, I think that should work.=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Editorial<=
/div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[ag] Agree with all c=
omments on this section.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br=
></div><div>- Terminology section should be renamed to acronyms.</div></div=
></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Accepted=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>- Document would benefit fr=
om a thorough editorial scrub, but maybe that will happen once it gets to t=
he RFC editor.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Will certainly have=
 helpful comments from ADs and RFC editor.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Section 1</div>=
<div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:mon=
ospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">&quot;Virtual eXtensible L=
ocal Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/h=
tml/rfc7348" title=3D"&quot;Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network (VXLAN): =
A Framework for Overlaying Virtualized Layer 2 Networks over Layer 3 Networ=
ks&quot;" style=3D"font-family:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pr=
e-wrap" target=3D"_blank">RFC7348</a><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-f=
amily:monospace;font-size:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">].  provides
an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual machines (VMs) to
communicate in a data center network.</span><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;&gt;</di=
v><div>This is not accurate.=C2=A0 VXLAN allows you to implement an overlay=
 to decouple the address space of the attached hosts from that of the netwo=
rk.</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for the suggested te=
xt. Will change as follows:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quo=
t;Virtual eXtensible Local Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [RFC7348].=C2=A0 prov=
ides</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0an encapsulation scheme that allows virtual mac=
hines (VMs) to</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0communicate in a data center network.=
=C2=A0</div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div><div>=C2=A0&quot;Virtual eXtensible Lo=
cal Area Network&quot; (VXLAN) [RFC7348].=C2=A0 provides</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0an encapsulation scheme that allows building an overlay network by=C2=
=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 decoupling the address space of the attached virtual h=
osts from that of the network.</div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Section 7</div><div><=
br></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace;font-si=
ze:13.3333px;white-space:pre-wrap">VTEP&#39;s -&gt; VTEPs</span></div></div=
></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Yes, thank you.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div></div>

--00000000000075e4cf057aae9cd0--

